29 Comments so far (Add 1 more)

1. I posted about this myself just yesterday. I thought the film was well done and made its point that there are ordinary, uninvolved people in Gaza who are suffering because of events beyond their control.

   At the same time, I can’t help but think that it’s a simplistic treatment of a complex situation and that opening the borders will somehow resolve the issues related to Gaza.

   I’d be interested in your and your reader’s thoughts on that.

   

   1. Charlie H. Ettinson
   on March 7th, 2009 at 8:59 am
   

2. Hi Charlie. I don’t think Closed Zone claims that opening the borders will solve Gaza’s problems. The clip is about being trapped. And how does preventing Gazans from traveling abroad help Israel? After all, Sderot and the other southern towns are still under Qassam bombardment; neither the war nor the closure changed that reality.

   

   2. Lisa Goldman
   on March 7th, 2009 at 9:37 am
   

3. Lisa, you’re such a hypocrite. The last time bombs were “falling” in Tel Aviv , you packed up and flew to Japan. You didnt have the guts to stay put like all the poor folks in Sderot and south, you were too “special” . Now you are preaching the world about the suffering of the palestinians.
   I bet when the rockets from Gaza will reach Tel Aviv you’ll pack up again and move to Sweden or some place else. After that you’ll come back and preach again about your “darlings”.

   Meir, I guess this means you didn’t like the clip! But come on, you could have expressed your opinion without being an insulting jerk. I went to Japan for work, not refuge; and I returned to TLV when the suicide bombings were still a part of daily life in the city. As for the poor people of Sderot and the poor people of Gaza – well, they are both victims of their so-called leaders; but at least the people of Sderot have freedom of movement. And I am sure that you are special too, in your own bizarre way. Lisa

   

   3. Meir
   on March 8th, 2009 at 8:06 am
   

4. Did you read the interview with the Norwegian Foreign Minister in this morning’s papers?

   BTW, Hope you see this Lisa

   

   4. EB
   on March 8th, 2009 at 10:03 am
   

5. Looking forward to the full story..

   

   5. What a Mess
   on March 8th, 2009 at 10:04 am
   

6. It is heart-breaking to see the suffering the Hamas leadership has brought upon the people of Gaza.

   Oh come on, Sharvul. You can do better than that hackneyed old cliche. Hamas doesn’t keep the borders closed: Israel does. Lisa

   

   6. sharvul
   on March 8th, 2009 at 11:31 am
   

7. Meir,

   I find your comment to be disturbing on so many different levels. First, as Lisa mentioned in her response to you, she went to Japan for work. Don’t forget that this is a person who, in the course of her work as a journalist, tends to run towards the trouble spots and not away from them, including a great deal of time spent along the northern border during the Second Lebanon War, when rockets were falling across the north.

   As for the people of Sderot having the “guts” to stay put, did it ever occur to you that many of them simply don’t have a choice, that they have no other place to go? Sure, while there are many who stay out of defiance, there are others who would jump at the opportunity to leave if they knew that there was a viable alternative – employment, housing, etc, somewhere else.

   Your assumption that Lisa will probably “pack up again and move to Sweden or some place else” if rockets start to fall on Tel Aviv is simply absurd. I’d be willing to bet that if anything would push Lisa to a breaking point where she felt she had no choice but to pick up and go (and I truly hope this doesn’t happen), it would be the increasing popularity of the fanatic far-right that can’t be bothered to give a damn about anyone who’s not a Jewish Israeli or anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their fascist, racist doctrines.

   

   7. Liza
   on March 8th, 2009 at 11:49 am
   

8. +++!

   

   8. Mongrel
   on March 8th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
   

9. If I had to describe my state of mind these days, i probably would use the words anger, frustration, and confusion. As Lisa says, the people of Sderot and Gaza are both victims of their so-called leaders. If a nation/people/country gets the leaders that it deserves, then I do not know what either Palestinians or Israelis did to deserve the ones that we are stuck with. The closure of Gaza as it is today does not make much sense, it certainly cannot be ‘sold’ abroad as something that contributes to our safety. Neither does ignoring Hamas. I wrote last week ( in a Dutch newspaper ) that Hamas is a part of the Palestinian reality, whether we – and the Palestinians – like it or not. Dealing with the organization does not mean that we have to get to a business as usual situation, or that we can expect any real peace agreement. But the current situation is absurd and unlivable, for both Israelis ( at least those living near the border with Gaza ) and for the people in Gaza. To get an idea of the wonderful new-old plans that we can expect from the new government, read a posting that I wrote today.
   Lisa, you do so much highly important work! Your Zionism is the kind that attracted me when I first started to think about packing my things and coming over here, and that keeps me here. Your political views are often somewhere left of where I stand, although much of what I think and say might be considered extreme leftwing in Israel these days, which shows how surreal the situation is. Keep up your good work.

   Bert, thank you for this. Lisa

   

   9. Bert
   on March 8th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
   

10. Old cliche’? Don’t get the chicken and the egg mixed up.

    There is a reason why the borders are closed: better kassam rockets than suicide bombers and kassam rockets together.

    The borders were open for a long time. There were also joint commercial zones, when the Gazans decided it’s in their best interests. So surely it isn’t Israel’s policy to keep them closed just to spite the poor palestinian running around like a rat in that silly movie. The decision, unfortunately for us Israelis, is entirely in the Gazans’ hands.

    Sharvul, anyone who has crossed through Erez knows that it is physically impossible for a suicide bomber to get through. And yes, I do think it is spiteful to deny ordinary, hardworking civilians the right to travel abroad to study, or attend a conference, or visit family. If you really think the decision to put Gaza on lockdown was a security-related decision, and not a punitive one, then you clearly have not spoken to anyone at the ministry of defense lately. Lisa

    

    10. sharvul
    on March 8th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
    

11. I don’t speak to MoD people. I find most of them rather dull.

    But you really need to take a higher-level perspective of the situation. It’s very easy to get bogged down with pity for the individual and lose sight of the proverbial forest. We do the same on our side as well; witness the case of Gilad Shalit.

    Fact was, and remains, that all the Hamas and the Gazans need to do for the blockade to stop is stop shooting rockets and stop calling for Israel’s destruction. Obviously Hamas can’t do that, being a proxy of Iran. And the first to suffer are obviously the Gazans. Oh, but wait a second… didn’t they elect Hamas in the first place?

    We would rather believe that it’s all our fault. One, it is more “moral” (if you follow the wrong definition of morality). Two, it gives us a false sense of control, thinking we hold the key to the solution. As I stated earlier, unfortunately for us, the key is not in our hands (or, if you prefer, there are two keys – like in a nuclear submarine – and we only have one in our possession).

    Sharvul, if you’re not interested in acquainting yourself with facts (you don’t need to speak to MoD people; you can read a newspaper – e.g. the official government statement that Gaza borders will remain sealed until Gilad Shalit is released) then there’s no point in continuing this already-tedious exchange. Patronizing remarks (“you really need to take a higher-level perspective of the situation”; and “it’s very easy to get bogged down with pity for the individual”) do your argument no credit at all. Nor does the intellectually and morally indefensible claim that all Gazans deserve to be punished for the actions of their leaders. Lisa

    

    11. sharvul
    on March 8th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
    

12. Fair enough. As I am deemed unable to defend neither my intellect nor my morality, I guess the least I can do is stop being tedious.

    If you leave patronizing comments then you don’t have the right to be all surprised and hurt at my responding sharply. There’s a limit to my Canadian niceness, eh? Lisa

    

    12. sharvul
    on March 9th, 2009 at 12:07 am
    

13. Vat is a MoD?

    >Ministry of Defense. L.

    

    13. Mongrel
    on March 9th, 2009 at 12:08 am
    

14. Lisa, I’m sorry, I only noticed your response to me today. Thanks for replying.

    I think closed zone presents an implicit argument. It argues that life is bad for people in Gaza. Why? Because the borders are being closed. Who is closing the borders? Israel. So how is the problem remedied? Have Israel open the borders. The question “why are the borders closed and will things really improve if they open?” is not addressed. Its this missing answer that makes the video simplistic.

    In any conflict, the welfare of all civilians ought to be paramount, but that being said, if forced to choose, any state would choose to protect their own citizens before those of the opposing party. I think that there are valid political and security reasons for keeping the Gaza strip closed. One may argue that if the borders were open the number and types of rockets to hit Israel would be greater, or that Hamas representatives could travel the world to raise funds and meet with sympathizers in foreign countries. The possibility of suicide bombers crossing into Israel from Gaza is also a possibility.

    All this being said, I empathize with those innocent Gazans who have no real role in this conflict. Unfortunately for them and for the Israelis, there’s no simple solution to their mutual predicaments. I certainly don’t have one, and I think Closed Zone, though it makes its point quite elegantly, doesn’t really provide any answers either.

    Charlie, I’m never going to get any work done if you keep writing these interesting comments.

    First of all, the ministry of defense is not keeping Erez Crossing closed for security reasons. I understand people would like to believe the government was reluctantly forced to impose a policy that causes innocent Gazans to suffer because it’s the only way to keep Israelis secure. That is not the case. In fact, the government does not even pretend that is the case – which is why I’m constantly surprised that people believe it is. The prime minister’s office and security services stated explicitly that the current closure will remain in place until Gilad Shalit is released.

    On previous occasions, the ministry of defense announced that it was closing Erez in response to Qassam barrages – again, as punishment, not as a security measure. On some occasions the closure has applied to foreign NGO workers, or to foreign journalists, as was the case during the two months period preceding Operation Cast Lead. Whether Gazans are allowed through Erez or not has no effect on the Qassam launchers. The two are separate issues. Qassams are not launched through Erez. They are launched from deep inside Gaza. Rockets were launched several times at the southern towns of Israel over the past week, while Erez was closed.

    The idea behind the closure is that if the lives of Gazans are made miserable enough – e.g., by keeping them penned up inside Gaza – they will rise up against their evil Hamas overlords, smite their firstborn or whatever, and then…. What? Bring back Fatah? Hold elections? No-one seems to be sure what the closure is supposed to achieve. It is certainly not working to loosen Hamas’s grip on power. Nor is it stopping the Qassam rockets. Hamas has demonstrated quite amply that it does not care at all how much civilians suffer. So it’s a mystery to me why anyone thinks that they’re going to be moved to make concessions to Israel – like putting a lid on their glorious Qassam resistance brigades – in return for Israel’s agreeing to re-open Erez Crossing to civilian traffic. That is not going to happen.

    Hamas leaders don’t have to worry about whether or not Erez is open; they enter and leave Gaza through the tunnels under the border with Egypt – which went back to working at full efficiency one day after the ceasefire – or through the Rafah border crossing, when the Egyptians open it for a couple of days every few weeks or so.

    Gaza’s economy is underground – literally. Goods ranging from zoo animals to computers are smuggled in through those tunnels. Hamas ministers bring in suitcases of cash that they collect from sympathetic donors abroad, too – not to mention the 20 percent tax they collect on all tunnel goods. Israel cannot control those tunnels: they are on Egypt’s border, not ours.

    In practice, Israel’s current border policy means, for example, that a well-known journalist who works for a prominent western media outlet, who speaks fluent English, has traveled through Erez on several occasions in the past and is known by the ministry of defense to present no threat, has no political affiliations and graduated from an Ivy League university, is denied permission to travel to Europe in order to speak at a conference. The reason for the refusal: “there is a policy in place that prevents Gazans to cross into Israel, unless it is an emergency (life and death)” (that last bit in quotation marks was copied from an email I received from a ministry spokesman).

    Opening the borders does not mean swing the gate wide open and allow unchecked passage to any Gazan who feels like taking a stroll into Israel. It means allowing Gazan civilians to apply for a permit to enter Israel, by supplying their ID numbers and reason for wishing to visit Israel to the ministry of defense, which can then approve the request after verifying that the applicant is not a security risk. Right now no-one can exit, for any reason at all – unless they need a kidney transplant within 2 hours or they’ll die, and the only matching kidney is at an Israeli hospital, or something similarly dire that qualifies as a life and death emergency.

    You have to see the security at Erez Crossing to understand that it is physically impossible for someone to break through by force. Soldiers’ lives are not at risk from suicide bombers either: all gate controls, bag checks and body scans are done by remote control.

    The bottom line: there are no valid political or security reasons for keeping Erez closed. It is a punitive policy that neither weakens Hamas nor protects Israelis.

    The point of Closed Zone is to illustrate what it feels like to be denied freedom of movement. If you want to discuss *all* the circumstances that make life difficult for Gazans, you’ll need to make a three-part documentary. At least. Lisa

    

    14. Charlie H. Ettinson
    on March 9th, 2009 at 12:30 am
    

15. Right, the visual closure of Gaza isn’t of any use, it is like you take a bottle of Coke/Pepsi throw in a spoonfull of sugar and put on the cap.
    Like you write it is better to open up the borders, will take off the pressure and open a ground for dialogue.
    Sooner or later the Israeli government and Hamas & the Palestinian Authority will have to make an agreement.
    Should do wat mr. Obama wants to do to the Taliban.

    

    15. Mongrel
    on March 9th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
    

16. Lisa – reading this reminds me of our conversations during the Gaza conflict, when I was last in Israel. Thank you for writing it, your humanity and compassion. Leila xx

    

    16. Leila
    on March 9th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
    

17. I don’t like what the closure does to the ordinary people of Gaza, as they will only grow up to hate us more. I don’t like what it does to us, as we are now justifying the indefensible in many cases. However, at the same time, how is one supposed to deal with the continuation of rocket fire at the south? The rockets didn’t stop during the ceasefire (especially as Islamic Jihad didn’t seem too concerned with it) and there will always be those who want us gone from here and who have the guns to cause us harm. What’s the way out, for all of us?

    

    17. Elianah
    on March 9th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
    

18. i have also briefly blogged about this.. it hasnt hit the awareness of any israeli friend i have and has not been raised once in conversation.. and for what its worth i have very few non “israeli” friends in israel except for my “arab” friends and they too havent mentioned this clip..

    i think u miss a couple of points in the post:

    (a) egypt is a part of this closure as well.. and as much as you dismiss the security value of the closure and as much as i personally dislike its impact on the lives of palestinians egypt has much less of a justifiable reason – and in fact – arguably owe it to its “muslim brothers” no pun intended to alleviate the suffering – which egypt is not doing..

    (b) we are at war.. as ineffective as the qassams are so are our rockets as well.. neither side has the amunition to break the will of the other.. and yet war continues.. sure their is an imbalance of power but that doesnt mean that you fling the borders open.. i dont know any international law that requires that you conduct business as usual with a regime that is sworn to your destruction or with its citizens..

    (c) i am very frustrated by the sweeping declarations of why we do or dont have the closure on our side.. the fact that it has been used as leverage in the gilad shalit negotiations since the pullout from the recent operation doesnt erase the fact that for 3 years beforehand it was not the key card.. this is a blatant misrepresentation of the facts.. secondly – i am glad that i live i a country that will not rest till its boys come home.. as someone who’s watched half the men in my family (admittedly except me) cross over enemy lines for the defence of this tiny state – i am encouraged to know that god forbid if something happens that efforts will be made and the government will work its ass off for them to come.. if the gazans dont like the price and think its too high for gilad then frankly they should release him..

    i am boggled by how they shake off all responsibility for this situation..

    for them it would be such a small gesture but it would have such a huge impact in terms of their credibility and their standing on the international stage..

    i reject the guilt the laces this post and think that it doesnt serve anyone when we unilaterally bath in apologism.. sadly israelis know that the situation in gaza is hell and sadly we are both playing chicken..

    the solution to gaza requires no real concessions on either side and could potentially create the basis for a broader comprehensive solution for the palestinian israeli conflict..

    if a state is so important and dignity is so important then retribution needs to relax for a little while and the priority of these values needs to manifest on the side of those claiming them..

    Lirun, are you sure you read my post? You’re making a lot of assumptions and doing a lot of extrapolating from stuff that I didn’t write – e.g., I do not claim that the clip made an impact in Israel because I know it didn’t.
    I’ve no idea what you’re talking about with the “guilt” and “apologia” accusations.
    You’re also claiming that I didn’t mention stuff that I did, in fact, write about in this post – e.g., Egypt’s role in keeping Gaza closed.
    As for your assertion that this is the first time Erez has been closed for “leverage” instead of security… Ah, I’m tired of arguing that one. If you’ve got specific examples to support your claim, share ‘em please. Lisa

    

    18. lirun
    on March 10th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
    

19. sorry for the poor writing – i was repeatedly interrupted

    

    19. lirun
    on March 10th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
    

20. Lisa, thank you for your serious and obviously attentive reply. If you want, I can try to be less interesting, or stop commenting all together…but that may hurt me as much as it benefits you…

    When I say security concerns, I am not only speaking from a tactical point of view (preventing suicide bombing, for example) but also from a strategic point of view. In other words, a long term plan to change the political reality and thus the security situation.

    I agree with you that it’s unfair to punish ordinary people for the actions of their leadership and I was quite upset to hear that journalists were not being allowed into Gaza during Cast Lead (though I do somewhat buy the argument that an injured or killed journalist would be a PR nightmare, no matter how irresponsible the journalist may have been).

    I think that Israel, as a sovereign state, has the right to view a Hamas run Gaza as a hostile entity (which it is) and to refuse to deal with it, in any way. I mean, it’s unfair to stop ordinary Israelis from traveling to Syria, but the Syrians aren’t blamed for it. This is because they each view the other as hostile. There was a time when Israel was in the same situation as Gaza in the sense that it was surrounded by hostile states. Nobody criticized their right to close their borders to Israel.

    I think the borders should be tied to Shalit, and a total cessation of hostilities. And yes, I know innocents are paying the price, but the Israeli strategy, to put pressure on Hamas, is a good one. Closing the borders is non-violent pressure and is a legitimate response of a sovereign state to those hostile to it. Besides, as is often repeated, Egypt is also a sovereign state and has closed their borders as well.

    I also disagree that the idea is to get Gazans to overthrow Hamas. I think the point is to apply pressure to Hamas but not necessarily inspire a revolt. Hamas does bend to pressure. We saw it during Cast Lead, where Gazan leadership was pressing for a ceasefire while Damascus based Hamas leadership, called for a fight to the finish. In the meantime, Gazans are not starving and aid is flowing into the strip.

    I think the consequences of opening the border would be tantamount to saying: “we disengaged, that didn’t work, we cut you off from us, that didn’t work, we bombed you, that didn’t work, so now, we’re going to let you keep our soldier, let you cross into our country and the rockets will keep falling. We’re impotent.”

    Keeping the border closed sends the message: “No. We will not grant you or your citizens any advantages nor do we owe them to you until you free our soldiers and stop trying to kill our kids. We will keep you isolated and continue to treat you as a pariah until you begin behaving like a member of a community of nations.” In other words, I think keeping Gaza closed is a political move, both on the international scene and on the domestic Israeli scene.

    As for your assessment as to the point of the clip, well, there, we fully agree. I hope I wasn’t too interesting this time!

    

    20. Charlie H. Ettinson
    on March 14th, 2009 at 2:11 am
    

21. I agree with Charlie. If Gazans want the border opened, then release Shalit, stop firing rockets and mortars into Israel, and stop tunnelling under the border to kidnap and/or kill IDF soldiers. That’s not such a huge ask in the big kids’ league in the community of nations. Unfortunately, Hamas, PJ and the PRC won’t do it, but I don’t quite see why that is Israel’s fault.

    Failing that, I don’t see any compelling reason why Israel should treat generously with a government sworn to its destruction (am I wrong about that?) – a government, moreover, that was elected by the people of Gaza to represent them, knowing full well what its policies were (and are).

    It’s not as if there is not access to Gaza from Egypt. Why not blame Egypt for the plight of the Gazans and pressure Mubarak into opening the border? Oh wait…. isn’t Hamas an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood that is trying to overthrow the Mubarak regime?

    However, Lisa, I well remember a comment of yours from way back that people who try to adjudicate on Israel’s policies from afar tend to make fools of themselves, and I daresay I have just done exactly that

    Rob, no. You could never make a fool out of yourself. I think I’ve run out of energy for arguing this subject, though. I agree with most of Mo-ha-med’s response – particularly the bit about Egypt not being responsible for Israel’s victims. But as I write above, in response to Edgar’s comment, it seems to me that this discussion is far more about emotions than facts. It is painful to acknowledge that one’s government is executing an ill-considered, cruel and ineffective policy, especially when we feel unjustly maligned by the we-are-all-Hamas-now crowd. And so we react from the gut.
    For me, there are two main questions: has the closure of Erez proven an effective means of stopping the Qassams?; and, is there any evidence to support the claim that keeping Erez closed will weaken Hamas’s grip on power? The answer to both questions is “no.” Add to that the dubious morality of keeping 1.5 million people (give or take a few) confined to Gaza, and it seems quite clear that the closure is a very poorly considered policy indeed. If you guys want to continue the discussion, go ahead. I think I’m going to go listen to Nina Simone and bake granola cookies. Lisa

    

    21. Rob
    on March 15th, 2009 at 6:48 am
    

22. lisa

    i never thought you would be so authoritarian about commenting.. disagreeing with someone is healthy

    i didnt think i was disrespectful – if i was i apologise

    i wont comment on your posts again

    i dont like this

    Lirun, what are you talking about? Lisa

    

    22. lirun
    on March 15th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
    

23. Seen to the fact allmost everybody on the Comments is complaining about your writing you’d be more than ever happy to solve mine.
    Is it possible for me to get another coloured icon, the idea to be in a way related to a marshmallow is unattractive nor are there any warm feelings towards creatures like a Pink Panther.
    
    Sorry, icons are automatically generated. I can’t control the colour. Lisa

    

    23. Mongrel
    on March 15th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
    

24. Charlie’s final comment did hold some interest. He seems to support the border closure because it sends the message “we’re not impotent”.
    We’re not impotent, and we’re going to prove it to you by killing 1300 people, bombing you back to the stone age, starving your people, denying you basic human rights.
    So you admit that you support a show of muscles by putting 1.5 million people in jail. Kudos for the honesty, Charlie.

    As for Mr “why-not-blame-Egypt-for-the-plight-of-the-Gazans”-Rob: beautiful mentality. Blame someone else. Quite typical really.

    Here is why you can’t blame Egypt for the plight of the Gazans:
    because you bombed them. You control their borders. You control the food and medicine that goes in and out.
    Because there are several crossing into Gaza from Israel, for various purposes (people; goods; etc) and there is no logic whatsoever in attempting to force all that traffic onto Egypt.

    Because you also control their sea borders, shooing away most ships – except the most media-covered ones – from the shore of Gaza, sending them to Tyre or wherever.

    Because it is Israel that has severed the geographical link between Gaza and the West Bank. I had a coworker from Gaza who lives in Ramallah. He hasn’t seen his family is nearly a decade – since 1999.
    As he was getting married in Ramallah, his mother – in Gaza- was given a permit to attend her son’s wedding.
    The permit was revoked the day before the wedding.
    THIS is what your country stands for. Not Egypt, sir, no.

    And because if Egypt is closing its borders most of the time – I will remind you that they are open every now and then, albeit not frequently enough – it is at Israel’s request.

    So why you can’t ‘blame Egypt for the Gazans’ plight’? Because you caused it. And you should take your responsibility, for once.

    Jeez.

    Oh, and, for whomever was comparing the Gaza closure to Syria closing its borders to Israelis: the latter regards allowing, or forbidding, certain people from ENTERING a country. The Gaza case is about forbidding people from EXITING. It would be akin to, well, Israel’s surrounding countries stopping people from exiting it, imposing a naval blockade on Akko, shooting down planes taking off from Ben Gurion. That would be a proper comparison.

    And frankly, allowing aid into Gaza isn’t a favour that Israel would be doing to Gaza. It’s an obligation under international law. And this ought to be respected, if Israel was interested in shedding away its reputation of being one of the world’s top human rights offenders.

    One more thing, on the “borders should be tied to Shalit’s release”. Take a step back, invert the players.
    Imagine the argument was “stopping Qassams and suicide bombings should be tied to the release of the 12,000 Palestinians held in Israeli jails”.
    What would you respond to that?
    Blackmail. Collective punishment. Fear tactics. And “we don’t deal with criminals”.

    Exactly.

    Pfiou. That was long!

    

    24. Mo-ha-med
    on March 16th, 2009 at 3:11 am
    

25. Quoting Lisa:

    “anyone who has crossed through Erez knows that it is physically impossible for a suicide bomber to get through.”

    “You have to see the security at Erez Crossing to understand that it is physically impossible for someone to break through by force. Soldiers’ lives are not at risk from suicide bombers either”

    Terror attacks in Erez and other crossings (just the few first results from a Google search – the articles are in Hebrew, but any reader can easily duplicate the results in their preferred language):

    http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-2903796,00.html

    http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=986090

    http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART/853/807.html

    http://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/154094

    http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/724/021.html

    http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-2648955,00.html

    A few examples of terrorists passing through the Erez crossing (again, just some results I picked from a search, a tiny fraction I’m sure):

    http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART/959/081.html

    http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3101559,00.html#n

    http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/627/952.html

    I have a hard time understanding how you could not be aware of this reality.

    Also, “The prime minister’s office and security services stated explicitly that the current closure will remain in place until Gilad Shalit is released. ‘” does not imply the border is not closed for security reasons (whether exclusively or inclusively), and your insistence on such is a clear fallacy. Israel (its leaders) may be willing to bear the security risk inherent in having the crossings open in exchange for a deal including Shalit.

    Daniel, or whatever your name is: the articles you cite are either about incidents that took place five years ago, well before Erez was made into the impenetrable security maze that it is now, or they are about attempts to penetrate the Gaza barrier in places other than Erez. I have a hard time understanding how you could not be aware of these facts, since they are clearly stated in the first paragraph of each article. I will not publish your comments in the future unless you leave your full name and email address. I can’t stand rude people in general; but rude people who try to muddy a discussion with agenda-driven falsehoods and don’t even have the courage to identify themselves really piss me off. Lisa

    

    25. Daniel
    on March 16th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
    

26. If you read the descriptions, you’ll see that some of attacks on Erez failed due to sheer luck, not security measures (in 2007, a bomb failed to detonate, in 2008 due to a hall being empty of people). I don’t see why attacks on other crossings are to be dismissed.

    Here’s the information in a more succinct form (still a partial list):

    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terror+Groups/Main+terrorist+attacks+carried+out+at+Gaza+Strip+crossings+16-Jan-2005.htm

    Daniel: We are talking about Erez. Erez is a pedestrian crossing. The crossing is a sleeve, about 500 meters long. The Israeli half is protected by remote-controlled metal turnstiles, followed by remote controlled cattle-pen-style aisles, followed by X-ray machines for the body and for the luggage. The border police / soldiers / security personnel who monitor the X-ray machines are located behind opaque bullet-proof barriers. You cannot even see where they are. Instructions are issued by microphone, if necessary. Vehicles do not enter Erez. They cannot even approach the entrance.
    This discussion thread is about whether or not keeping Erez closed is a punitive or security-related policy. I have provided evidence to show that it is a punitive policy, but you have not supplied any evidence to show otherwise. In fact, you have supplied information to support my argument: according to your MFA link, the security at Erez prevented putative suicide bombers from getting through. That is what it is for. Attacks on other crossings are irrelevant to this discussion because we are talking about Erez – i.e., the only crossing for civilians. My impression is that you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Lisa

    

    26. Daniel
    on March 16th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
    

27. Daniel, to leave an email adress behind is a form of gallantry, if we want to be part of the discussion we have to live up to to Lisa’s rules.

    Do not look forward to have the rest of my life to look at this marshmallow icon, on the other hand rather this one than EB’s.

    

    27. Mongrel
    on March 16th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
    

28. Lisa,

    For what it’s worth, I think you are right on this one.

    But you’re angrily rejecting any argument that goes against your point of view, calling people “rude” and “patronizing” simply for disagreeing with you.

    Daniel was not rude at all, IMO. He’s making a valid point that from past experience, there COULD be a terror attack at Erez if Gazans are allowed to cross freely.

    Personally, I think that’s highly unlikely. But he’s entitled to his opinion, isn’t he?

    Edgar, I edited out the rude bits from Daniel’s last comment before publishing it. I am in a bad mood today, true. Daniel keeps arguing the same asked-and-answered-points and that is irritating under any circumstances – in this case, it is especially so because he doesn’t offer evidence to support his argument. I’d really love to host an informed discussion of the issues about Gaza. That would be interesting and stimulating. But that’s just not happening right now – this thread seems to be more about emotions than facts. Maybe I should blog about recipes for awhile – I could use the break. Bah. Lisa

    

    28. Edgar
    on March 16th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
    

29. Lisa, have you already posted a warning that the comments to your blog are organized LIFO (Last In First Out)? I was most confused by responses to comments that didn’t appear until “later” until I looked at the dates and not the numbers.

    Savtadotty: I know, it’s annoying. I’m going to fix the problem soon. Lisa

    

    29. Savta Dotty
    on March 18th, 2009 at 8:49 pm