http://mikemarcus.blogspot.com/

He’s an israeli who started an “artistic intifada”

civax – “Russian roulette”. “Not with life you can’t” . How dramatic.
As for ‘getting a low number for how many are in favour of hurting civilians’ – AND? Does that ensure your moral superiority, by any chance? I can assure you, it doesn’t. Formulated this way, only a terrorist would vote yes. The real onus becomes on people like yourself, who would not mind justifying the mass-murder in Gaza as being unavoidable: and “war is never clean”, you said.
Oh, but we knew that already, did we not. Your wars are particularly devoid of cleanliness. White phosphorus against civilian populations in Gaza. Cluster bombs in Lebanon 06. Dirty war at its best.

The real question is whether a war is necessary, or justified. And here, it was ‘no’ on both counts.
As for the “need to do something” which seems to permeate the Israeli rhetoric regarding this war – this is possibly the most ridiculous argument to be made. That’s it? “something has to be done”? Aren’t there “other things” that could be done as well? Naaah. Crush the effing Palestinians once and for all seemed like the way to go – an argument which has now been recycled into “we can’t stop at a half-victory and go into a cease-fire” by those who haven’t gotten their dose of adrenaline yet.

As for you doubting the numbers of the dead – that’s a cheap, cheap way of out an argument. If you really don’t believe every news outlet in Gaza, nor the UN (whose compound your country bombed! Bravo! On par with Iraqi terrorists in 2003!) you might want to encourage the entry of media into the strip rather than, again, drink at the fountain of the IDF.

Allison – Sharon was no Rabin and we both know it. Disengagement – more like redeployment, really: settlers were mainly moved into OTHER settlements in the West Bank! – wasn’t seeking peace but a host of other goals that were widely discussed at the time. Gaza was never ‘liberated’. And please don’t tell me that the few months between 2005-2006 was the chance for the Palestinians to “make of Gaza another Singapore”.

The average Israeli voted for war, votes for the continuation of war, and will vote for a right wing gov in February that will put any plans for negotiations on the backburner indefinitely.
Fifteen years ago, there was support for peace. The average Israeli was Rabin indeed.
Clearly no longer.
No, I’m afraid the average Israeli is Liberman. Feiglin at best.

My apologies for the lengthy response!

I disagree that showing Israelis more of the human misery in Gaza would change their ‘pragmatic realpolitik’ views. It would make them upset and more emotional but I don’t think it would change their minds.

Mohamed, you talk about the ‘pro-war, anti-peace group.’

‘Group?’ Like Civax, I supported Oslo, I supported disengagement, I would support withdrawal from the West Bank in exchange for real, long-term permanent peace, though I now view that as a purely hypothetical situation. But like him I believed the time had come to act against the rockets. Does that make us part of the “pro-peace” or “anti-peace?” group. I think most Israelis are part of the “let’s stay alive” group.

The average Israeli is absolutely Yitzhak Rabin – and the latest version of Ariel Sharon who made disengagement happen. If we were all Lieberman, that would never have happened.

The centrist Israeli view was perfectly clear – let’s get rid of the Gaza settlements, let’s pull the army out, let’s stop being occupiers and let’s give it a shot – live side by side in peace. If not holding hands and singing ‘kumbaya’ then at least leaving each other the hell alone. Let’s have a real border and if there is aggression across them, we’ll have a word for it: war. And then Hamas was elected and that’s exactly what happened.

Hopefully, today’s events will help demonstrate which side really wants war and bloodshed at any price.

Lisa: We had a lot of talks over the time so you already know more or less what’s my approach to things. I do desire peace. I was in favor of the Oslo accords, I was in favor of the disengagement – I am in favor of trying to get a system of living side by side. I am NOT, however, forgiving when I feel deceived. And I keep feeling like that with the Palestinians. Every time there is another group, another organization that still wants to spill more blood.

I talk with my left wing friends, I read all these posts (like yours) that mainly feel like THEY are misinformed. No matter how long Israel waits before it finally acts with force, no matter who we talk to – there are always people who keep saying ‘ho, you didn’t try hard enough!’ (yes, Klinger, I means you…)

You keep forgetting that during all this time there is a game of Russian roulette played on my life and my parents life and the rest of the people here. The longer we wait ‘to try more things’ the better the chances of me or my friends and family being hit. So you might feel it’s safe to think and rethink more and more ways to avoid a fight.

Not with life you can’t.
It’s been clear to everyone that Hamas isn’t really interested in peace. You claim so yourself, Lisa, yet you stop at the obvious conclusion. If a brutal, radical, terror organization doesn’t want peace with us, why should we agree to ‘truce’ that will let him rearm for a later fight?

This IS a no-choice war, Lisa, it’s just been waiting for so long. You can say Hamas is pragmatic all you want, but they are pragmatic about THEIR goal, which is the destruction if Israel.

War is ugly. War is hell. War in populated areas ALWAYS hurt civilians. Do I need to remind you numbers like the 1500 civilian casualties by the hands of NATO in Kosovo? War is never clean. That’s why it needs to be avoided by both sides if possible.

When there is a need to fight, you need to fight immediately. I’m sure we could have avoided the scale of the current operation if the first rockets had a serious – yet limited – response.

Mohamed:
90% are in favor of attacking Hamas. If you’d ask how many in favor of hurting innocent civilians you’d get a really low number. you could witness this as more personal stories will be out of Gaza and you’ll hear how many people here feel sorry for them and not angry at them.

Marcos:
I think the real numbers are much lower. All these numbers that the UN/BBC/others provide comes mostly from one source which is the Hamas ministry of health. In Jenin Palestinians claimed 500 dead at first – yet the final number was 50-60 and not all civilians. According to IDF about 70%-75% of the dead in Gaza are Hamas members. We’ll have to wait and see.

hopefully this coming cease fire will last and the building could start soon. Let this whole mess be over already.

Minor example: Millions of us in the USA are eagerly anticipating (for decades and counting) THE Inauguration Tuesday. We have viewing parties, post-ceremonies celebrations, creative in-out trips to Washington nationwide. (Tell me your Zip code, and I’ll send you a link to festivities, prayer services within 5 miles of your home!) Among those millions, many are revolted by the choice of who gives the Invocation. They feel betrayed, distanced, worse from the President elect. REPEAT QUESTION: “How do we identify the human agents, and deploy them, and heed them?”

We want what we want, and delivered as we want. If we can’t live a piece of the dream, how do we get to peace? Even a modus vivendi? One commenter on your post said you are not the Think Tank Queen (though perhaps you should apply;-) so I ask your clever, sensitive, concerned readers, too, for responses.

Sorry for the long comment. Edit if you want. Blessings and love to you, dearest Lisa. Your gifts and gifts balance much of the horror.