Comments on: “They can either be eliminated, or we can learn to live together with them”

By: Adam Daniel Mezei

Adam Daniel Mezei — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:47:25 +0000

@tagraffiti, good clarification. I’m glad you made the distinction, because what seems to be happening (perfectly honestly, mind you!) is that we’re tarring ALL the Gazans with the SAME brush. I suppse, in the very same way that Jews are considered to be some monolithic mega-rich cloak and dagger entity controlling The Force and The Universe as we know it.

Quite obviously, it’s hardly the case: http://www.alternet.org/story/119372/pro-israel_rally_attended_by_big-time_ny_dems_descends_into_calls_for_%27wiping_out%27_palestinians/

Personally, I’m saddened the protesters here weren’t more informed about Gazan/Israeli issues. While I think there are some certifiable nutjobs safely ensconced in their American/New York idylls (Weizmann is dancing to Kylie Minogue’s pop tune in his grave) coming out for a day of venting, Mr. Blumenthal, the reporter, the clip does a nasty job of setting ‘em up for the kill. Jab, Hook, Cross. (Not to mention the slickster editing).

All this to say that not everything is what it seems to be at all times…

I realize you didn’t say “myopic,” but sometimes it’s fun to put words in your mouth (just kidding!).

By: tagraffiti

tagraffiti — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:20:02 +0000

Thanks for telling me what I should appreciate!!
I did not mean to criticize Leonid (and I didn’t lamb baste or use the word myopic – hey!) – I’m just pointing out that there was a time that Israelis and Palestinians did live together. You are correct that it was under occupation, which isn’t desirable for either side, but it is a modus vivendi… As awful as occupation by Israeli forces was for the Gazans, I honestly wonder if “the Gazans” Leonid is talking about would say that their life with Islamic extremist leadership has left them better off. Don’t get me wrong – I don’t advocate the reoccupation of Gaza in any way. What I was trying to say (and didn’t do very clearly, I guess) was to point out that there is a difference between “the Gazans” that Leonid’s talking about and the Gazans he’s not describing here – i.e. Hamas and other terror organizations who are proxies for Israel’s enemies and claim to exist mainly for the purpose of destroying Israel.
When it comes to Leonid’s Gazans – there is nothing to learn. These are people that anyone could live with. They aren’t the problem.
The intractible problem here is Hamas – we cannot learn to live with them and the idea that we could is entirely unmoored from the religious and political reality of who they are. So what do we do about them?

By: Abe Schmulewitz

Abe Schmulewitz — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 06:44:49 +0000

Lisa,
I didn’t see the article as criticism, but if learning to live with them means learning to live under constant threat of missiles or suicide bombers, them it seems to me quite obvious to add another option. The fact that he didn’t to me says something. If the Palestinian leadership had put any effort into building up a functioning state as an alternative to”occupation” there would be no need for Gazans to look for work in Israel and go through such hardships. I would like to remind you that Israel was also criticized for the exploitation of these workers as being an extension of the occupation

By: Tamar

Tamar — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 01:40:09 +0000

Yikes. This is powerful, eye-opening from one who was there. Neither secondhand nor hearsay. Just look and see. And report. His words, “… some Gazans didn’t go home from Erez but slept right at the machsom on [the Gaza Strip] side [...] on the mattresses… were saving time and energy” sprung to mind a documentary film I watched last spring at the Tel Aviv Cinemateque Library: “Six Floors to Hell.” Illegal Palestinian workers “LIVE” six floors below an unfinished mall parking garage when they are not seeking or doing work above ground. Less than an hour, I thought the film would never end. Just watching was excruciatingly painful. See it at the Cinemateque Library or Google to find YouTube clips.

By: Adam Daniel Mezei

Adam Daniel Mezei — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 22:18:50 +0000

From a cold reading of Leonid’s post, I’d have to question why this sort of ardent industriousness has never been applied as a “national project” on the part Gazans? I mean, just imagine this sort of equation:

Gazan/Palestinian construction site work ethic

copious resources from the EU, US, and UN

a flowering of Palestinian national consciousness and a strengthening of their domestic institutions in their alotted area in the Holy Land (wherever/however) it may eventually appear.

As citizens of a democracy, I don’t think it’s at all inappropriate for Israelis to question why this isn’t the case in Gaza. It’s hardly irresponsible, @Lisa, as you note in your rebuttals.

And, @tagraffiti, rather than lambaste Leonid for his “myopic” approach the problem because he’s only been in IL for a decade and a half, I’d rather laud his fresh perspective, being untainted by the failed approaches of the past.

–ADM in Prague

By: tagraffiti

tagraffiti — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:05:33 +0000

This article only makes sense if you are someone who has lived in Israel for less than about 15 years.
The Gazans described in this article are the hardworking (to say the least), family men who want to make a living and see their children grow up to have a better life than they did.
No one wants to eliminate them. The implication here is that Israelis actually see “Gazans” and “Non-Gazans”, which is ridiculous. I don’t think there is a single one of us in Israel who does not make the distinction between these people and the Islamic extremists stockpiling weapons and calling for the destruction of Israel.
The implication that Israelis look at the “elimination” of Gazans as an option is a terrible, terrible misrepresentation of Israeli policy toward the Palestinian people.
We also don’t need to LEARN to live with them – because for years – before there was Hamas, before there was Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade or suicide terror – we DID live with them. Israelis could go to Gaza. Gazans could come to Israel to work without going through the nightmare described in this post.
Perpetuating the myth that there is some ancient, intractible ethnic conflict between Palestinians and Israelis is also irresponsible. There is not – we did live together. Maybe it was a cold peace, but it was not what it is today.
This is about Islamic extremism which has victimized these poor construction workers, their families and every Israeli teenager who has to spend three of the best years of his life at a checkpoint on the border with Gaza.

You have misunderstood Leonid’s story. He is not saying that we are trying to eliminate all Gazans. He is saying that the middle way – i.e., the current limited military campaign – will not work. He thinks we have two choices: either to destroy everyone and everything in Gaza, which is obviously unacceptable; or to come to a modus vivendi. It is not true that we once lived alongside Gazans as equals. We occupied Gaza – we were the rulers. And it is not only Islamic extremism that victimized those poor construction workers. We victimized them, too – with lower wages than those paid to Israelis, no unemployment benefits and limited freedom of movement. Finally, I think that rather than criticizing Leonid for having a limited perspective, you should appreciate the fresh and objective eye he brings to the Palestinian-Israeli relationship. Lisa

By: Abe Schmulewitz

Abe Schmulewitz — Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:58:00 +0000

How about them learning together with us?

Abe: I find it fascinating that so many Israelis and Jews feel it necessary to respond to any self-criticism with a variation of “and what about them?” “Them” being the Palestinians, of course. We refuse to accept criticism from the Palestinians, but we feel free to dish it out. And we also seem to have a really, really hard time looking in the mirror. I will let the Palestinians and Arabs deal with their own internal dialogue, while I focus on the one taking place in my own society. Lisa