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	<title>Comments on: Sustainable Conflict Tourism</title>
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	<link>http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/</link>
	<description>Previously On the Face</description>
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		<title>By: tasawuf</title>
		<link>http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/comment-page-1/#comment-2814</link>
		<dc:creator>tasawuf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 06:46:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/#comment-2814</guid>
		<description>adaab,
its a good one.loved it as i am also from an occupied land.have you been to kashmir-Indian occupied.

May God bless the writer in you</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>adaab,<br />
its a good one.loved it as i am also from an occupied land.have you been to kashmir-Indian occupied.</p>
<p>May God bless the writer in you</p>
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		<title>By: Aphemia</title>
		<link>http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/comment-page-1/#comment-2787</link>
		<dc:creator>Aphemia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 01:30:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/#comment-2787</guid>
		<description>Hi Lisa!
Just recently found your blog while starting to look up some mideast news sites and I just had to thank you for the fascinating commentary on your olive picking trip.  Sort of Sex in the City meets post-feminism meets political commentary.  You are awesome!  Just be careful, I read your Lebanon blog which I know is ancient news but OMG, you were taking some chances there! Best of luck!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Lisa!<br />
Just recently found your blog while starting to look up some mideast news sites and I just had to thank you for the fascinating commentary on your olive picking trip.  Sort of Sex in the City meets post-feminism meets political commentary.  You are awesome!  Just be careful, I read your Lebanon blog which I know is ancient news but OMG, you were taking some chances there! Best of luck!</p>
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		<title>By: Jameel @ The Muqata</title>
		<link>http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/comment-page-1/#comment-2813</link>
		<dc:creator>Jameel @ The Muqata</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 09:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/#comment-2813</guid>
		<description>Hey Lisa.

If you really want to write an interesting posting about the Left not being a monolith, you could also balance it out at the same time, including settlers not being a monolith.

However, your analogy was incorrect; a settler with a &quot;peace now&quot; sticker has no corresponding relevance to a Leftist...ie, a Leftist with a Eretz Yisrael Hashleima  sticker?! No such thing.  My point was that there are extremist loony leftists who uproot settler olive trees,  spit, curse, chant racist slogans, and shove IDF soldiers...

My Leftist friends are moderate leftists who don&#039;t condone or participate in the above behaviour.  (Some of them used to even be my best friends)

Looking fwd to your post :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Lisa.</p>
<p>If you really want to write an interesting posting about the Left not being a monolith, you could also balance it out at the same time, including settlers not being a monolith.</p>
<p>However, your analogy was incorrect; a settler with a &#8220;peace now&#8221; sticker has no corresponding relevance to a Leftist&#8230;ie, a Leftist with a Eretz Yisrael Hashleima  sticker?! No such thing.  My point was that there are extremist loony leftists who uproot settler olive trees,  spit, curse, chant racist slogans, and shove IDF soldiers&#8230;</p>
<p>My Leftist friends are moderate leftists who don&#8217;t condone or participate in the above behaviour.  (Some of them used to even be my best friends)</p>
<p>Looking fwd to your post <img src='http://lisagoldman.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: lisagoldman</title>
		<link>http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/comment-page-1/#comment-2812</link>
		<dc:creator>lisagoldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2008 18:52:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/#comment-2812</guid>
		<description>Geez, Jameel...

The opposite of leftist is not settler, ja? For example, at Haaretz I used to work with a graphic artist who lived in Ariel. She had a Peace Now sticker that advocated withdrawal from the territories on her office door. In fact, she was one of those &quot;settlers&quot; who told me she&#039;d be perfectly happy to live inside the Green Line - but she had a disabled husband who was unable to work and received only a pittance in National Insurance benefits, two daughters and a very small salary. On that small salary she could afford a three-bedroom bungalow with a garden  in Ariel, or - as she put it - &quot;a two-bedroom apartment in the worst part of Bat Yam.&quot;

The opposite of extremist is - last time I checked - moderate.

As for the loony&lt;b&gt; extremist&lt;/b&gt;  settlers- c&#039;mon! I know you wouldn&#039;t defend spitting, cursing, chanting racist slogans,  and shoving. Nu? Neither would I - from anyone. This has nothing to do with politics. This is about civilized behaviour. And yes, those people I met in Hebron were totally nuts - violent and foul-mouthed.

Oh yeah, and I never said that some of my best friends are settlers. (they aren&#039;t). I mean, I have friends who live in West Bank settlements. But they aren&#039;t my best friends. ;)

Plus, the Left is actually *not* a monolith. In fact, you&#039;ve just given me an idea for my next post. Which I shall dedicate to you, my settler (not best) friend. ;)

Re. the Saudi blogger: yes, horrible story. But no, I&#039;m not going to organize an Israeli bloggers&#039; campaign of support. It wouldn&#039;t help him, he probably wouldn&#039;t be too pleased, and that there is the sad reality of the Middle East.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geez, Jameel&#8230;</p>
<p>The opposite of leftist is not settler, ja? For example, at Haaretz I used to work with a graphic artist who lived in Ariel. She had a Peace Now sticker that advocated withdrawal from the territories on her office door. In fact, she was one of those &#8220;settlers&#8221; who told me she&#8217;d be perfectly happy to live inside the Green Line &#8211; but she had a disabled husband who was unable to work and received only a pittance in National Insurance benefits, two daughters and a very small salary. On that small salary she could afford a three-bedroom bungalow with a garden  in Ariel, or &#8211; as she put it &#8211; &#8220;a two-bedroom apartment in the worst part of Bat Yam.&#8221;</p>
<p>The opposite of extremist is &#8211; last time I checked &#8211; moderate.</p>
<p>As for the loony<b> extremist</b>  settlers- c&#8217;mon! I know you wouldn&#8217;t defend spitting, cursing, chanting racist slogans,  and shoving. Nu? Neither would I &#8211; from anyone. This has nothing to do with politics. This is about civilized behaviour. And yes, those people I met in Hebron were totally nuts &#8211; violent and foul-mouthed.</p>
<p>Oh yeah, and I never said that some of my best friends are settlers. (they aren&#8217;t). I mean, I have friends who live in West Bank settlements. But they aren&#8217;t my best friends. <img src='http://lisagoldman.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Plus, the Left is actually *not* a monolith. In fact, you&#8217;ve just given me an idea for my next post. Which I shall dedicate to you, my settler (not best) friend. <img src='http://lisagoldman.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Re. the Saudi blogger: yes, horrible story. But no, I&#8217;m not going to organize an Israeli bloggers&#8217; campaign of support. It wouldn&#8217;t help him, he probably wouldn&#8217;t be too pleased, and that there is the sad reality of the Middle East.</p>
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		<title>By: Jameel @ The Muqata</title>
		<link>http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/comment-page-1/#comment-2811</link>
		<dc:creator>Jameel @ The Muqata</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2008 16:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/#comment-2811</guid>
		<description>Lisa -

Actually, your comment could easily be rewritten swapping the word &quot;settler&quot; for &quot;leftist&quot;...

&lt;i&gt;I’ve had quite a few very unpleasant run-ins with those leftists, who really are the loony fringe. I use the term “loony” quite deliberately, because a lot of those extremists seem to have serious personality disorders. Their way of expressing their political/religious ideology is just a manifestation of their personality disorders.&lt;/i&gt;

Though, leftists aren&#039;t a monolith, and I have many leftists friends :)

On a much more serious note, are you going to help organize a &quot;Israeli bloggers stand united with imprisoned &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/world/middleeast/02saudi.html?_r=2&amp;oref=slogin&amp;oref=slogin&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Saudi blogger Fouah al-Farhan&lt;/a&gt;&quot;?

Personally, I find this incredibly offensive, and offer my support (for whatever it&#039;s worth).

(The Muqata Stands for Freedom of Speech on Blogs...provided they aren&#039;t inciting to murder)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lisa -</p>
<p>Actually, your comment could easily be rewritten swapping the word &#8220;settler&#8221; for &#8220;leftist&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p><i>I’ve had quite a few very unpleasant run-ins with those leftists, who really are the loony fringe. I use the term “loony” quite deliberately, because a lot of those extremists seem to have serious personality disorders. Their way of expressing their political/religious ideology is just a manifestation of their personality disorders.</i></p>
<p>Though, leftists aren&#8217;t a monolith, and I have many leftists friends <img src='http://lisagoldman.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>On a much more serious note, are you going to help organize a &#8220;Israeli bloggers stand united with imprisoned <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/world/middleeast/02saudi.html?_r=2&amp;oref=slogin&amp;oref=slogin" rel="nofollow">Saudi blogger Fouah al-Farhan</a>&#8220;?</p>
<p>Personally, I find this incredibly offensive, and offer my support (for whatever it&#8217;s worth).</p>
<p>(The Muqata Stands for Freedom of Speech on Blogs&#8230;provided they aren&#8217;t inciting to murder)</p>
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		<title>By: Semper gumby</title>
		<link>http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/comment-page-1/#comment-2810</link>
		<dc:creator>Semper gumby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2008 14:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/#comment-2810</guid>
		<description>Good read!   It&#039;s like an alternate universe.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good read!   It&#8217;s like an alternate universe.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: lisagoldman</title>
		<link>http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/comment-page-1/#comment-2809</link>
		<dc:creator>lisagoldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/#comment-2809</guid>
		<description>Hi R. -

I think Seth&#039;s doing a pretty good job over at CiF. I only take the occasional peek, though, because I haven&#039;t the stomach for the commenters - most of whom seem to be psychotics off their meds.

About my responses to your questions: I just want to emphasize that the sexual aspect (a.k.a. the culture clash) is *not* specific to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It&#039;s a universal theme,  about the meeting of a liberal and a conservative society. The latter need not be a Muslim society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi R. -</p>
<p>I think Seth&#8217;s doing a pretty good job over at CiF. I only take the occasional peek, though, because I haven&#8217;t the stomach for the commenters &#8211; most of whom seem to be psychotics off their meds.</p>
<p>About my responses to your questions: I just want to emphasize that the sexual aspect (a.k.a. the culture clash) is *not* specific to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It&#8217;s a universal theme,  about the meeting of a liberal and a conservative society. The latter need not be a Muslim society.</p>
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		<title>By: R.</title>
		<link>http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/comment-page-1/#comment-2808</link>
		<dc:creator>R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2008 23:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/#comment-2808</guid>
		<description>Well, thanks Lisa.  That&#039;s a post in itself! I am sure many people would  like to know about this sexual angle of the  conflict.  I know a bit about Islamic mores but this adds an interesting element.   May be you should write  something on CIF?  I am getting tired of Seth!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, thanks Lisa.  That&#8217;s a post in itself! I am sure many people would  like to know about this sexual angle of the  conflict.  I know a bit about Islamic mores but this adds an interesting element.   May be you should write  something on CIF?  I am getting tired of Seth!</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/comment-page-1/#comment-2807</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:10:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/#comment-2807</guid>
		<description>Lisa,
Thanks for the extended, in depth explanations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lisa,<br />
Thanks for the extended, in depth explanations.</p>
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		<title>By: lisagoldman</title>
		<link>http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/comment-page-1/#comment-2806</link>
		<dc:creator>lisagoldman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2008 11:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lisagoldman.net/2007/12/27/sustainable-conflict-tourism/#comment-2806</guid>
		<description>Hi R. -  Nice questions, actually. Answers are as follows:

1. Khaled wasn&#039;t exactly hitting on me. He was a good guy, very devoted to his career (pedagogue) and his family, etc. He knew his questions were inappropriate, but he just couldn&#039;t restrain his curiosity - which was puerile, no doubt. Hebron is a very conservative place, and it&#039;s really all he knows, so my lifestyle - unmarried, living alone in a liberal city - was as exotic and bizarre for him as the life of a burkha-wearing, Afghani village woman would be for us. I should add that a lot of people in Ramallah, Bethlehem and East Jerusalem think Hebron is hopelessly conservative, too, in that big city versus the boondocks sort of way.
One of the themes I tried to underline in this post is the sexual aspect of the conflict - which is a universal aspect of all conflicts. It&#039;s a kinda hackneyed theme, so I tried to be, um, subtle.
Khaled is curious about me less as a Jewish Israeli, and more as a &quot;modern woman.&quot; Hadeel and her cousins worry a bit about how to find common ground with a woman whose lifestyle is so foreign to them - again, not as a Jewish Israeli, but rather as an unmarried woman living alone in a big city.
The Israeli guys are more into the Swedish woman than their political activism.
With his fluent Hebrew, superficial knowledge of Israeli cultural mores and privileged socio-economic status in Palestinian society, Jamal tries to take advantage of his position in order to simultaneously taste a little forbidden fruit and show his compatriots that he is more sophisticated than they, and that he can have what they can&#039;t - in more ways than one. Jamal also put me in an awkward position by playing the conflict card. If he were a sleazy Israeli guy asking me for my phone number in a Tel Aviv cafe or bar, turning him down would&#039;ve been a no-brainer. But he disguised his come-on as a sort of political gesture - i.e., I want to thank you for your support of the Palestinian people.

And, of course, there was the power imbalance aspect: as a woman in a traditional society, I had less power; but as a representative of the occupying power, as it were, I had more. So agreeing to give him my phone number was kind of patronizing, since I had no particular desire to stay in contact with him. On the other hand, my refusing to give him my number could’ve been disingenuously misinterpreted as discrimination. After all, Israeli girls give their phone numbers out to any guy who asks. Well, don’t they? So that must mean you’re turning me down because I’m Palestinian.

So that’s where Jamal’s lack of understanding of “the rules” in a sexually liberal society comes in. He’s seen Tel Aviv, but he didn’t “get it.” I didn’t particularly care whether or not I insulted Jamal. I just didn’t want to make an easily misinterpreted scene in front of all those people I’d spent the day working with. That’s why I waited until we spoke on the phone to tell him off.

2. I didn’t see any settlers that day. There are, however, many well-documented instances of the extremist settlers who live in the Hebron area attacking Palestinians while they were picking olives, herding goats, etc. I’ve had quite a few very unpleasant run-ins with those settlers, who really are the loony fringe. I use the term “loony” quite deliberately, because a lot of those extremists seem to have serious personality disorders. Their way of expressing their political/religious ideology is just a manifestation of their personality disorders. I’ve been spat at, cursed and shoved. I’ve seen the loonies wearing T-shirts emblazoned with slogans that praise Meir Kahane, while they were demonstrating and chanting racist slogans under the protection of Druze and Bedouin border police. On the other hand, when I once showed up in Hebron wearing a long skirt and without a reporter’s notebook in my hand, they were very welcoming.

I think it’s really important to emphasize that “the settlers” are not a monolith. That’s why I poked fun at the English woman on the van, because I think the Israeli Left makes a huge mistake in painting a disparate group of people with a single brush. This creates unnecessary schisms and alienation where conciliation could easily be effected with a different attitude. I know lots of non-ideological, non-religious people who live in largely secular West Bank Jewish towns for simple economic reasons. They’d be perfectly happy to live inside the Green Line if they could afford a nice bungalow with a garden, instead of a cramped two-bedroom in a marginal neighbourhood. There are also a lot of religious settlers who do believe in a two-state solution – just not precisely along the Green Line. In that sense their political POV is quite similar to mainstream Israeli opinion.  The extremists are the minority, but they make the most noise so they get the most media coverage - as usual.

3. I’m quite sure the internationals were unaware they were being exploited for free labour. But that’s quite typical of well meaning but badly informed volunteers in any situation where the motivating factor is political ideology. I don’t believe the ISM is in cahoots with the landowners, but that’s the only even marginally positive thing you’ll get me to say about that messed up organization and its twisted, inflammatory ideology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi R. &#8211;  Nice questions, actually. Answers are as follows:</p>
<p>1. Khaled wasn&#8217;t exactly hitting on me. He was a good guy, very devoted to his career (pedagogue) and his family, etc. He knew his questions were inappropriate, but he just couldn&#8217;t restrain his curiosity &#8211; which was puerile, no doubt. Hebron is a very conservative place, and it&#8217;s really all he knows, so my lifestyle &#8211; unmarried, living alone in a liberal city &#8211; was as exotic and bizarre for him as the life of a burkha-wearing, Afghani village woman would be for us. I should add that a lot of people in Ramallah, Bethlehem and East Jerusalem think Hebron is hopelessly conservative, too, in that big city versus the boondocks sort of way.<br />
One of the themes I tried to underline in this post is the sexual aspect of the conflict &#8211; which is a universal aspect of all conflicts. It&#8217;s a kinda hackneyed theme, so I tried to be, um, subtle.<br />
Khaled is curious about me less as a Jewish Israeli, and more as a &#8220;modern woman.&#8221; Hadeel and her cousins worry a bit about how to find common ground with a woman whose lifestyle is so foreign to them &#8211; again, not as a Jewish Israeli, but rather as an unmarried woman living alone in a big city.<br />
The Israeli guys are more into the Swedish woman than their political activism.<br />
With his fluent Hebrew, superficial knowledge of Israeli cultural mores and privileged socio-economic status in Palestinian society, Jamal tries to take advantage of his position in order to simultaneously taste a little forbidden fruit and show his compatriots that he is more sophisticated than they, and that he can have what they can&#8217;t &#8211; in more ways than one. Jamal also put me in an awkward position by playing the conflict card. If he were a sleazy Israeli guy asking me for my phone number in a Tel Aviv cafe or bar, turning him down would&#8217;ve been a no-brainer. But he disguised his come-on as a sort of political gesture &#8211; i.e., I want to thank you for your support of the Palestinian people.</p>
<p>And, of course, there was the power imbalance aspect: as a woman in a traditional society, I had less power; but as a representative of the occupying power, as it were, I had more. So agreeing to give him my phone number was kind of patronizing, since I had no particular desire to stay in contact with him. On the other hand, my refusing to give him my number could’ve been disingenuously misinterpreted as discrimination. After all, Israeli girls give their phone numbers out to any guy who asks. Well, don’t they? So that must mean you’re turning me down because I’m Palestinian.</p>
<p>So that’s where Jamal’s lack of understanding of “the rules” in a sexually liberal society comes in. He’s seen Tel Aviv, but he didn’t “get it.” I didn’t particularly care whether or not I insulted Jamal. I just didn’t want to make an easily misinterpreted scene in front of all those people I’d spent the day working with. That’s why I waited until we spoke on the phone to tell him off.</p>
<p>2. I didn’t see any settlers that day. There are, however, many well-documented instances of the extremist settlers who live in the Hebron area attacking Palestinians while they were picking olives, herding goats, etc. I’ve had quite a few very unpleasant run-ins with those settlers, who really are the loony fringe. I use the term “loony” quite deliberately, because a lot of those extremists seem to have serious personality disorders. Their way of expressing their political/religious ideology is just a manifestation of their personality disorders. I’ve been spat at, cursed and shoved. I’ve seen the loonies wearing T-shirts emblazoned with slogans that praise Meir Kahane, while they were demonstrating and chanting racist slogans under the protection of Druze and Bedouin border police. On the other hand, when I once showed up in Hebron wearing a long skirt and without a reporter’s notebook in my hand, they were very welcoming.</p>
<p>I think it’s really important to emphasize that “the settlers” are not a monolith. That’s why I poked fun at the English woman on the van, because I think the Israeli Left makes a huge mistake in painting a disparate group of people with a single brush. This creates unnecessary schisms and alienation where conciliation could easily be effected with a different attitude. I know lots of non-ideological, non-religious people who live in largely secular West Bank Jewish towns for simple economic reasons. They’d be perfectly happy to live inside the Green Line if they could afford a nice bungalow with a garden, instead of a cramped two-bedroom in a marginal neighbourhood. There are also a lot of religious settlers who do believe in a two-state solution – just not precisely along the Green Line. In that sense their political POV is quite similar to mainstream Israeli opinion.  The extremists are the minority, but they make the most noise so they get the most media coverage &#8211; as usual.</p>
<p>3. I’m quite sure the internationals were unaware they were being exploited for free labour. But that’s quite typical of well meaning but badly informed volunteers in any situation where the motivating factor is political ideology. I don’t believe the ISM is in cahoots with the landowners, but that’s the only even marginally positive thing you’ll get me to say about that messed up organization and its twisted, inflammatory ideology.</p>
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