Talking to the neighbours

In today's International Herald Tribune: an op-ed by a former IDF officer named Avi Azrieli, who is also the author of this book, makes a lot of sense to me.

“Israel's recent hopes for peace, fueled by the disengagement from Gaza
and elections won on plans to cede the West Bank, have given way to
another war and to grim talk of eternal fighting. Israelis now speak of
the Arabs' hate as a chronic disease that Israel is destined to live -
or die – with. To revive its hopes, Israel must dare to consider a
change of paradigm: transform itself into a Middle Eastern country.”

Read the rest here.

If you liked my post, feel free to subscribe to my rss feeds

Post meta

This entry was written by Lisa Goldman and posted on August 30, 2006 at 2:44 pm and filed under Main Page. Bookmark the permalink. Follow any comments here with the RSS feed for this post. Post a comment(Latest is displayed first) or leave a trackback: Trackback URL.

Share with others

Post Talking to the neighbours to Reddit

57 Comments so far (Add 1 more)

Fascinating article!
Some comments (from a non-Israeli, which means i might be way off):
1. I think what makes Israel (and Lebanon to a certain degree) distinct from the rest of the Arab world is the very fact that those 2 countries embrace the western lifestyle, technology, values, etc. more so than the countries surrounding them. I would argue that trying to be more like an Arab country would take Israel backwards.
2. Teaching the Arabic language and making it a requirement: Considering Arabic is an official language, I think this is a good idea. Language is the key to dialogue, and even though it might seem like a very far jump from teaching Arabic to dialoguing with the Palestinians and Arab neighbours, i think there is a connection there (a long and narrow connection, albeit).
3. The concept of Arabism not being in contradiction with Zionism. This is where my not being Israeli or Jewish fails me to some degree. But as an “outsider”, I have to wonder if the author is taking into account the “jewish character and identity” of the state of Israel. Whereas it doesn't, by definition, exclude Arabs, it remains a foregone conclusion that if Arabs were to become a majority, the state of Israel would indeed lose it's jewish character, which in and of itself would be a contradiction to Zionism.
To expand somewhat on that last part:
What solutions exit to the problem of cohabitation (specifically with the Palestinians and the Arab-Israeli community)? The issue I describe above (that of an Arab majority) brings 3 possibilites to mind:
a. Israel stays a democracy, but loses its “jewish identity”.
b. Israel stops being a democracy by enforcing the rule of a minority, in the South African Apartheid model.
c. Israel circumvents the “Arab majority” problem by *ahem* eliminating the Arabs (mass deportation or whatever).
I don't particularly see a third choice here. Hopefully I am mising one, because none of those 3 seem acceptable. If I had to pick one (and again, speaking as a non-Israeli), i'd have to vote for (a). But we all know that ain't happening…
(Sorry for the long comment)

1. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Bad – it is a good comment.
1. I don't think that Israel needs to become more Arab, just accept that it is modern Middle Eastern. Some of the Jews there are from Europe, some from the US and some from Arab countries, never mind local Arabs (Muslim and Christian) as well as Druze. Trying to be only Western or only Middle Eastern denies many their culture, background and experiences. The question is how to meld that together, as I mentioned below, Israel is in a unique position to function as a bridge between East and West.
2. Language can also be a window on the mind.
3. Now you have hit on the great debate within Israeli society.
Zionism started with socialist roots and viewed Israel as a safe haven for Jews, a democracy. Modern messianic Jews want a Jewish state, the most extreme wishing for a theocracy. Lots of people fall somewhere in between.
I spent a lot of time going over it. I understand the hopes of the religious for a true Jewish homeland, but I know I am not willing to accept the price, which is a loss of democracy and removal or subjugation of another people (and I think the action would go against the Jewish faith too). Which leaves a democracy with a Jewish majority, formed by ceding control of majority Arab areas (West Bank, Gaza), or creating one mixed State, by annexing those areas and absorbing the population, which would mean no Jewish majority and possibly civil war. Some people would accept the last option (barring civil war) but not many so I guess it has to be the second (unless someone has a stroke of genius and comes up with something which makes everyone happy).
Which means, that intifada, “resistance” or no, the Palestinians will eventually get their own state, the question becomes when will Israel feel safe enough to end its military occupation of these areas, and when will the Palestinians get their act together enough to administer to their own population?

2. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Lisoosh,
Good reply
I have a question though. Let's focus on item (2), since it seems the most likely: Withdrawal from West Bank and Gaza. Somewhere down the line, assuming there is peace and security is not an issue, does Israel remain a viable jewish state? You still have a bunch of arabs living inside Israel proper, who might, someday, become a majority (considering natality rates). Do you expell them? How exactly do you treat them? Even while they are still a minority. Can an arab-Israeli ever dream of being PM, say?
I actually see a lot of parallels there with Lebanon (my home country, so I happen to know a bit about it). The sectarian system we've had in place there since the French mandate is only democracy in disguise. I don't consider it Democracy if only a Sunni can be PM, or only a Christian Maronite can be President. But I also see where that system came from: the necessity of integrating the various sects that made up Lebanon without a single one being subjugated by the others. In many ways, the Jewish-Arab issue we're talking about in Israel is somewhat similar, except that Israel has so far chosen to be a Jewish state (let's say Lebanon had chosen to be a Maronite state, where the other sects were “inferior” politically, as a parallel).
When it comes to Lebanon, i personally advocate true democracy: One man, one vote. Anyone can be elected to any post. If it so happens our President is always Shia, because we have a lot of Shia…then so be it. But I also recognize the pitfalls of true Democracy.
I don't mean to digress, but I see the Israeli issue in a similar light (i might be wrong though, since i'm no expert). How do you see reconciling TRUE democracy with having a Jewish state? Aren't the 2 notions inherently contradictory?

3. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
You're getting close to the real heart of the issue, where I can't really speak for anyone else, and no matter what happens someone is going to be mad, so all I can really tell you is what I feel and think and would love to see.
Some background. While Jewish, I did not grow up in a religious household, nor within a Jewish community. As a result, Israel was not a big topic in my home, although we cheered when they won Eurovision (twice) and I did read Exodus and a couple of other books about the early years. My first visit was at 18 when I spent just under a year volunteering on kibbutz and travelling the region, including a month spent in Egypt. This was pre intifada days so I was able to travel freely around the West Bank. I fell madly in love with the country, as I experienced it, which meant fairly provincial (Tel Aviv was not the high tech place it is now), and incredibly varied both in geography and in people, including the Arabs. I loved travelling in places such as Hebron and Jericho just as much as I loved Tiberias, Acco, Haifa and the desert. I don't have as much invested in the notion of the Jewish State, except as a safe haven as others do, although I like the fact that it exists.
So, yes I have pulled myself apart over the question of Jewish State versus true democracy and yes they can only exist together by manipulation. While I would like Israel to remain Jewish, both because I feel that the Jews do need a safe place, and because I like it, if forced to choose, I would go with a democracy.
I would like to see Israel truly be a light unto all nations, and for me that would be a place where different races and faiths are treated fairly. I would like it to function as a true democracy, as a place of laws, with separation between synogogue/church/mosque and state and an independant judiciary. I want a state that is for all of its citizens and where all of its citizens are for their state. You can't legislate togetherness, but you can make the laws fair and treat people equally. For the record, I don't think that the Israeli Arabs are going to overtake Israeli Jews in population any time soon. From conversations with many Arab friends they mentioned how their societies are changing as a result of their exposure to different cultures. Their education level is rising and birthrates tend to drop accordingly. I would however hope that while a majority, we would put into place a system that was so egalitarian, fair and strong and would develop a society that was cohesive enough, so being a minority wouldn't make a difference.
But that's just me.

4. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Excellent comment.
This is what I would want to see too in any country that is ethnically diverse (I say that because, again, I see parallels to Lebanon here). A place where the laws were fair enough that it wouldn't matter if you were jewish, muslim or anything else.
Unfortunately, I don't see this happening.

5. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Bad Vilbel -
“I don't mean to digress”
Then don't.
“but I see the Israeli issue in a similar light (i might be wrong though, since i'm no expert). How do you see reconciling TRUE democracy with having a Jewish state? Aren't the 2 notions inherently contradictory?”
I have tired of these supposed “dialogues” between Arabs and Jews, where Arabs revert to the familiar anti-Zionist arguments and criticize the Jewish system of self government, to an audience of well-intentioned Jews who are too eager to be accommodating to see through the insincerity and speak up for us.
Vibel:
My answer to you, is that the chances of there being an Arab prime minister in Israel far outweigh the chances of there ever being a Jewish head of state, or any non-Arab head of state, for that matter – of an Arab nation.
And you're right, my friend. You are not an expert on democracy. Because technically, there are no democracies. Even the United States is not a true democracy. If you're going to criticize Israel, be willing to criticize democracies across the board.
In brief -
Get your own houses in order first, my friend. The Arab world has its own problems. Then you can start critiquing ours.

6. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
He wasn't critisizing Israel, moron. He was asking a legitimate question, and he is right.

7. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Anonymous:
I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. I was countering a rhetorical question that claimed Zionism and democracy are incompatible.
How is saying that the foundation of Israel is incompatible with democracy NOT criticizing Israel?
And why does challenging that make me a moron?
Please explain.
I understand my tone was sharp, but if you are at all familiar with these Israeli-Arab dialogues, you'd know that this often happens. Arabs claim they want to hear our point of view, yet they actually seek to deligitimize it. That is not a true dialogue of mutual understanding. It's still a dialogue based on demonizing Zionism.
A constructive dialogue must start with the realization and acceptance that the majority of Israeli (or Diaspora) Jews do not want to live in a state with an Arab majority, or in a state run by an Arab prime-minister, who, most likely, would not support the notion of a Jewish state – anymore than Germans in Germany want to live amongst a French majority, and have a French prime minister, or Chinese want to live amongst a Japanese majority and have a Japanese prime minister.
Unless, of course, you want to pontificate on the nature of what a true democracy is. And that opens another can of worms, because, there really aren't any.
My question to Arabs outside of Israel who would like to see Israel have an Arab or Lebanese prime minister is, “Why?” There are over twenty Arab countries with Arab heads of state. Why does the Jewish state need to be ruled by an Arab as well?
And why are inarticulate people like you, Anonymous, always attacking those of us who make these points? I suspect it’s because you're not capable of making an intelligent argument.

8. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Actually anon was me, I clicked the button by mistake and I am more than capable of a rational argument. If you want to postulate that a Jewish State (not Zionism in its traditional socialist sense but religious Zionism) deliberately maintained, without reverting to social engineering (ensuring that there is always a Jewish majority) is compatable with the commonly accepted definition of democracy (one person one vote irrespective of race) you are going to have to work pretty hard. In fact, if it wasn't so difficult, the right wouldn't be working so hard to come up with “solutions” that do just that: such as drawing borders around majority Arab areas, paying Arabs to leave, deporting Arabs or allowing them to live in Israel as non-citizens only. If it wasn't so hard, Israel would have just annexed Gaza and the West Bank years ago when Egypt and Jordan rescinded their claims.
France and Germany are poor examples as they citizenship is granted by birth, not race or religion. The majority of Jews in Israel and the Diaspora may want to live in a majority Jewish country, you won't get an argument from me about that, but it does not change the fundemental problem and arguing otherwise is intellectually dishonest in the extreme.
And the Arab that you were insulting is Lebanese and would very much like to see Lebanon and Israel at peace and with open and free borders, a pretty decent agenda.

9. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Lisoosh:
How I was insulting Bad Vibel by telling him that his attacks on Zionism are not constructive to a cross cultural dialogue, after reading statement after statement from him where he states that he would prefer if Israel wasn't a Jewish state? And frankly, can't Vibel speak for his/herself? I understand you are passionate about these issues, but calling me a moron on Vibel's behalf was your choice, not mine.
“France and Germany are poor examples as they citizenship is granted by birth, not race or religion”
“I am more than capable of a rational argument”
Then do your research before you start piping off and calling me a moron. Both France and Germany have citizenship laws that give preference to ethnic French and Germans at birth. Not all people born in those countries are automatically citizens. Germany has its own Law of Return, as well.
And with the history of conflict in Europe over the last century, and the debates happening in these societies right now regarding immigration and putting laws in place to restrict it , how could you possibly make a case that these countries – or many other countries in Europe – are not interested in maintaning an ethnic identity.
And arabs born in Israel are Israeli citizens, as well.
“one person one vote irrespective of race) you are going to have to work pretty hard.”
Not really. As Lisa has said on this blog, Arabs in Israel are enfranchised citizens who can vote, etc.
As far as the rest of your arguments about the “right”, it would help if you gave examples, rather than construct straw men and knock them down.
“but it does not change the fundemental problem and arguing otherwise is intellectually dishonest in the extreme ”
More intellectually dishonest than calling me a moron and constructing straw man arguments and knocking them down?
And a problem for whom? For anti-Zionists like yourself, maybe, but for the majority of Jews and Israelis, the idea of a vibrant society that acts as a place of refuge – an affimative action program, if you will – after thousands of years of persecution is not problematic. In Israel itself, and on this blog, Jewish Israelis (like Lisa) are fully aware of the Arabs living amongst them, and are doing there best to keep Israel a sane, rational, fair society by debate, etc.
Ironically, you are proving my point, which is that there IS no point in discussing the situation with people who refuse to see the Zionist POV and acknowledge Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state.
I'll let you have the last word, on this. Have a good one.

10. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
brooklynsax -
Sorry. I know it ruins the thrust of your argument but I am a Jew who made Aliyah and lived for many years in Israel as an Israeli citizen, married to a Sabra and with lots of family there. Hardly anti-zionist, though more of a social zionist than a religious zionist as I have found that while I can respect their position, there are many issues that they raise which concern me. You don't have to be anti-zionist to realize the dichotomy that exists between maintaining a specific racial mix and power structure in a state and a fair legal/political system based on equality. I think it is better to face this dichotomy head on and deal with it than to pretend it doesn't exist.
As to “the idea of a vibrant society that acts as a place of refuge – an affimative action program, if you will – after thousands of years of persecution is not problematic.” sounds lovely, but that is not the nature of the debate at the moment in Israel. The right wing “solutions” that I mentioned previously, which you referred to as “straw man” arguments, are those as put forward by Leiberman (redraw the borders to exclude as many arabs as possible, including current Israeli Arabs), Benni Alon (deportation of Arabs, rescinding of citizenship of Israeli Arabs with offer of residency but no political rights) and I believe a new one, whose source I have to check, is to pay the Arabs to leave, including Israeli born. The goal of course is to ensure that Israel remains solely Jewish with many supporters of the above plans favouring a theocracy of some kind. Hardly conducive to a vibrant multicultural society. I don't bring this up in order to criticize Israel, rather to point out that Israel is in some ways facing an existential crisis as to its very nature at this time, whether it is to be a religious nation or a democracy that provides a safe haven for Jews. The point of my previous discussion with Bad was to compare this dichotomy with that of Lebanon which tries to deal with their racial issues with power sharing which also leads to problems and is in a way suborning the growth of a true democracy. The question still remains, if, in a hundred years, an Arab, 10th generation Israeli and the smartest, best qualified and most statesmanlike candidate for Prime Minister would actually be elected irrespective of race?
And I grew up in Europe. I know the xenophobia which exists, I know well the discussions and identity crises they now face in regards to immigration. I also know the immigration laws well enough to know that those that Israel has (which I went through) are unique. So feel free to disagree with me, but don't base those disagreements on false assumptions.

11. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
brooklynsax,
You are right. I can speak for myself.
I quote from your comment: “he states that he would prefer if Israel wasn't a Jewish state”
Please show me where i stated that i would PREFER that Israel wasn't a jewish state. I stated no such thing.
If you choose to read my questions as criticism for Israel, then that is your choice. You can believe whatever you want (I believe it's called freedom of thought and speech). Besides, last I checked, critcism was one of the elments of Democracy. If you want a state that no one can critcize, you might want to move to Iran or Syria. They're very good at dealing with critics over there.

12. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
And lets not forget the other issue of democracy in a Jewish State and the basic question of “who is a Jew?”. Who gets the power over the faith? Will there be a Jewish version of the Pope? How would he be picked? What would be the power of the Rabbinut compared to the government? What if the people voted for secularization? How would the legal system be set up? If the legal system was based solely on Jewish Law, would all of the judges be Rabbis? Who would pick them? What if Jews abroad were being victimized and in need of safe harbour but the religious leadership did not recognize them as Jews?
The question of the Jewish State and democracy goes far beyond Israeli/Arab relations. I'd certainly be interested in how you envision that working.

13. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Lisoosh:
I haven't assumed anything about you that you haven't told me yourself.
First – I don't see how my arguments are null and void simply because you have lived in Israel (or Europe). I live in the United States. The fact that I live here does not make your opinions about our democratic foundations and immigration laws meaningless next to mine.
“The question of the Jewish State and democracy goes far beyond Israeli/Arab relations.”
Obviously. And you are very passionate about it. I admire that. But my concern is with Vibel's repeated rejection of Jewish self-rule and criticisms of Israeli democracy.
And I still don't see how a basic rejection of jewish self-rule is conducive a peaceful solution to this conflict with mutual understading and acceptance of “the other”. And that's how this little back and forth started.
Again, my tone was sharp, and I sincerely apologize to Bad for that. It was immature to attack him like that.
But my stance is still the same.
This is a great blog, and it's truly wonderful that Lisa is dedicated to building bridges here. She remains eternally optimistic. It's fantastic that Vibel and other Arabs and lebanese engage in conversation. But from a practical point of view, rejection of jewish self-rule by one side – in the end – is not a genuine acceptance of Israel's right to exist in peace as a jewish state. It's a conversation stopper. And cross cultural Arab – Israeli dialogues are too often about Israel's supporters having to justify the legitimacy of Zionism. It's time to move beyond that to real acceptance.
And while it's true that aspects of Israel's immigration laws are unique, the immigration laws themselves are not completely unique as you are claiming. Germany, Mexico, Venezuela, Greece, and France are just some of the countries that make it easier for certain people to become citizens based on their ethnic origins. Germany has a law of return, and all of the Balkan and Baltic countries have laws of return as well.
So, I really stand by what I said to Vibel, minus the tone of my response – and all that I've said to you.
“And lets not forget the other issue of democracy in a Jewish State and the basic question of “who is a Jew?”. Who gets the power over the faith? ” etc.
I'm flattered that I've inspired you to discuss these questions with me, but I simply haven't the time to deal with the list of what-ifs you've presented. Perhaps you can start a blog that deals explicitely with those issues, and I'll read it.

14. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Interesting points. For a long time I've been aghast that Arabic isn't mandatory for Israelis. However, it's naive to think Arabic fluency will cause the Arab world to accept Israel more (I think that there's very little that can cause that to happen). I can also see how understanding Arab rhetoric in the original could push the Israeli public farther to the right.
All that said, it's crazy that Israelis do not understand their Arab neighbors, in Israel, in the territories, and in neighboring countries.
The problem then of course becomes: which Arabic? Formal Arabic for the papers and news? Spoken Levantine to speak to Palestinians/Jordanians/Syrians/Lebanese? Classical for Quranic studies? Spoken Egyptian for movies? A combination? And how will this be balanced with the current curriculum (which includes English) for the Israeli pupil?

15. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Bad and Tamouz – Thank you for the smart and thought-provoking comments. It'll be interesting to see what kind of a comment thread develops here.

16. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
While there are things I applaud in his op-ed piece, such as Arabic being a required language studied in school and the need to embrace our own Israeli Arab citizens on an equal basis, ultimately I feel it would be dangerously delusional on our part to believe that the Arab countries around us would embrace Israel because of these things.
The Arab World he describes with such nostalgia does not exist any longer. There as deep schisms in today's Islamic world where factions are fighting one another in the most violent ways.
Culture is an ever-evolving dynamic. It can't be forced ahead. And, quite frankly, by the time the idealized Israel he describes could come about, Israel may not be here to to enjoy it.

17. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
I pretty much agree with what you have written here. I think he assumes and expects a great deal when talking about the effect on the outside Arab world.
However, as a way of cleaning house, and making conditions WITHIN Israel more settled, it is a very good start. Learning Arabic will definitely go a long way towards at least having a better understanding of the local Arab population and while I don't think it is necessary to adopt Arab culture, Israel is in the prime position to form a bridge between the West and the Arab world by accepting the Arab culture within its midst. Israel already is a Middle Eastern country, it's just that a lot of its inhabitants don't realize it.

18. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Ask any dyed-in-the-wool Anglo-Saxon born Israeli how “westernized” they think Israel is and you'll be in for a good laugh. At times I think we try too hard to emulate America in all its aspects, which is not a good thing.
As you pointed out, we are a nation of native born, new and old immigrants with all types of backgrounds and levels of religious belief. First and foremost, we need to make Shalom Bayeit. Where absorption in the States is described as the “Melting Pot” (though that is debatable these days), Israel indeed is the “Pressure Cooker”, and we constantly are needing to keep a close eye on that steam gauge.

19. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Heh. I can't stand the homogenization that is happening there. Every time I see the Golden Arches between Mevasseret and Castel I want to cry.

20. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
“My great-grandfather and namesake, the rabbi of a farming community on Mount Carmel a century ago, learned Arabic in order to converse with his neighbors. (Unfortunately, he and his family were massacred while visiting relatives in Hebron during the 1929 Arab riots.)” – brief, but very telling.
Perhaps we will all learn Esperanto ?! Maybe then peace and harmony will prevail in our battered region?
It’s not that learning Arabic isn’t a great idea, but still, one feels a bit weary.

21. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
As an Esperantist I must acknowledge that I believe it is the easiest way to come to a common language for all people around the world. Though the language is not the main issue here and the main issue is the way one use the language. We can use it for saying and saying and never try to hear the other side. I'm from an Iranian origin (though actually I'm living in Canada) but by learning Esperanto I had some very constructive dialogues with very different people around the planet. I learned that I must also here the others and I must try to undrestand their points of view. Those dialogues that I had by help of Esperanto was never possible by English or French (the both I know). Also I think that one can not construct a bridges between cultures only by a common language. There must be a will to undrestand the other side.

22. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Do you know that in 2000 the universal congress of Esperanto was held at Tel-Aviv in your country? You can also contact Israeli Esperantists here.

23. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
For my own comment, because I couldn't resist responding to others, I would like to point out something the author dismisses but which is incredibly important – immigration.
Israel is in a slightly unique position because of it's incredible importance to Jews all over the world. There are millions of people who don't live there, but feel a strong connection to it and a strong urge to effect the direction it takes and even to have an effect on its nature and culture. It also is subjected to stong surges of immigration, including from countries which have no or little exposure to Arab culture whatsoever. The large immigration from Russia in the early 90's changed the political landscape, and immigration by relatively prosperous and well educated American and French Jews also have an effect.
This just adds to the challanges Israel faces in coming to terms with its nature and place in the world.

24. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
When I see thoughtful comment threads like this, I want to jump up from my chair and cheer. you guys are like a breath of fresh air today.

25. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
I'm sorry, maybe I'm naive but while I'm sure that Mr. Azrieli is very inteligent he thinks that integrating “Arab” culture is going to make the terrorist put down their weapons and give Israel a big hug? Which Arabic culture would he suggest? Should Israel be more like Iran? I think that Iranians would be quite insulted to be called Arabs. Maybe Israel should be more like the Kurds? I vote for the Kurds, because they are the most pro-Israel. Israel is the ONLY democracy in the Middle East that protects the rights of minorities, women, gays and lesbians. Of course Israel has its faults but it admits to its faults and tries to improve. Iran hangs girls who have been raped! Gays and lesbian Palestianians flee to Israel from prosecution! I think the Middle East should try to be more Israeli.

26. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
a change of paradigms is needed by all sides. it may be easier said than done, but discussing it is always the first step.
good luck.

27. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
This has to be one of the dumbest articles I have read on this topic for a very very long time, quite simply because as you tend to view arabs as a headache you have to live with, they view you as a cancer they would very much like to see eliminated. Speaking their language won't change that!
Whatever…

28. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Hi Sandmonkey,
ILOL. As always you cut to the bone. Perhaps learning the language will be the prelude Israelis learning to trade with their neighbors. Right now most Arabs spend all their energies hating and trying to kill Israel. Perhaps things would change if they started to produce something worth trading for rather than suicide bombers. The goal should be trying to short circuit the headache/cancer paradigm. Of course this all flies in the face of the disengagement thing. Obviously that is not working.
The alternatives are rather bleak: waiting for Iran to get atomic weapons, waiting for Hezbullah to re-arm, waiting for the next cycle of violence.
What are you advocating? (I'll go to your blog and check….)

29. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Most arabs don't spend all their energies hating and trying to kill Israel. Talk about hyperbole.
Trust me, most arabs did that, Israel would be in a lot more trouble. You might wanna take stock of the cheer numbers of arabs out there, not just the guys in Gaza, the West Bank, and Southern Lebanon.

30. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Holy ****! I need coffee…I butchered that last comment bigtime!
- IF arabs did that…
- sheer numbers (not cheer)

31. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
It's ok BV. We got it! BTW I like reading your comments on whatever blog I find you on. I appreciate your balanced tone, your insights and knowledge.
Fay

32. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
No worries. Vicarious coffee on the way. ; )

33. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Still, learning the language and studying the culture – and even adopting some elements of the culture, mainly to use in political intercourse – is useful. “Know thy enemy”.
Regarding the future of Israel as Jewish state, we have lived for almost 2000 years in other people's countries. We tried to accomodate and be accomodated, spoke the language and adopted the culture. It has always ended badly for us. German Jews were very much integrated, yet the Holocaust still happened.
So, IMO Israel must remain Jewish, for us to live as free nation in our oun state.
How to do this technically is another issue.

34. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
I believe that any attempt to know more about the other side is a step forward and makes the task of extremists harder .for myself i once tried to learn hebrew and one thing i discovered is that it is close to the arabic language (both are semite languages),
I try always to learn more about the israeli society and I managed to converse with many israelis on the internet and our conversation was very constructive and interesting.

35. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Agreed. Being able to put oneself in the other side's shoe, so to speak, goes a long way. Making an attempt at understanding where the other side is coming from, etc….
Unfortunately, not enough people are willing to do that.
Arabs certainly haven't tried very hard to put themselves in Israel's shoes. And I'd argue some Israelis have tried, but maybe not enough, to put themselves in the Arab shoe (or flip-flop, as the case may be).

36. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
this is the unfortunate truth ;that no body is trying to understand and appreciate the other side
i agree that maybe the arab side is more ignorant of the jewish people and the ordeals they faced through history and particurarly to admit israelis' hisorical right for the land they live in (not occupy) today.
i have great hopes and ambitions for this area in the world which is the middle east ,i wish that someday we can transform the middle east into a role model of torelance ,mutual understang and peace.

37. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
“transform itself into a Middle Eastern country”
Oh, I guess that means you are going to start to cut off limbs for punishment.

38. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
When will Israel stop trying to be liked?
You will never be liked by the Arabs. You can totally transform your society to be just like them and they will still hate you.
You choose to live in this neighborhood and you should know what it takes to keep living there. It is a rough neighborhood where only a rough people can survive.
So stop trying to be liked. It won't happen. Stop talking about peace for it won't happen. Train your people to be warriors for that is what it takes to survive in your part of the world.
Either that, or move to America, Europe, or wherever.
When America was an land still full of savages we were very cruel to them. I am not saying that I am proud of that but I am saying that had we not been so ruthless, we would have not been able to survive in the untamed land.
Lisa, Israel is not Canada. It doesn't have oceans protecting it from those who might want to harm it.
So, either accept the demands of the area you live in, or get out of that neighborhood.

39. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
I would hedge my bets by teaching some version of Arabic in Israeli schools: that way we could use it either for neighborliness or commerce or spying.

40. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Arabic is already an elective language in HS here, but not required. My hubby took one year of HS Arabic 35 years ago and even today he can still read signs fairly easily. (I wish I had his memory-my HS French is exactly that, a memory.)

41. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Thanks for the link.

42. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
It is the stupidest idea I have ever heard!
Instead of making Israel another Arab country and then hope that we can settle the territorial issues (which are not actually territorial at all but existential) and then hope that the Arabs will embrace the Jews, lets remain Jews, lets speak Hebrew, lets invest (or not it is optional) in teaching Hebrew to the Arab Israelis in a way that will rise their level and accent (miftah) to the level of the regular Israeli Jew, and then lets wait until the Arabs accept us as we are, and not as they want us to be.
Really, Lisa! Pleeeease! It is enough already with the annoying Mizrahi music that follows me everywhere I go.

43. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Sandmonkey beat me to it. What he said, plus: this guy must have cracked up and lost his mind. I don't know what his excuse is, but Lisa, what is yours? Do you not understand how absolutely hated and loathed Israel is, and why?
Let me tell you why, Lisa. It's not because you expelled the Palestinians, etc. That's part of it. It's because you are demonstrably superior to what surrounds you, and because YOU KEEP TRYING TO BE LIKED. The guy that desperately attempts to be liked will always be hated.
Anyway it doesn't matter. The vast majority of Israelis won't listen to garbage like this.
There is one good thing in the article, which I agree with: Israelis should learn to read and speak Arabic. Then you would be able to understand how much they hate you, want you dead, and would rejoice at the thought of it.

44. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
While language alone is not enough, I tend to agree that it can have a miraculous effect on people psychologically speaking. It is one step forward and things have to start somewhere, so why not language.
The aim is to start with something positive to eliminate any investment in negativity, hatred and fighting. A healthy reaction would be: when do I start learning the other's language (Hebrew for me)? It does no harm either way, whether things worked out or not! Again, why not?!

45. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Because, speaking Arabic and eating kebab did a lot of good for the Mizrahi Jews. They live a wonderful life nowadays in Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, right?… or maybe not.
I don't have anything against Arabs. But I don't want to be one. And I don't ask them to be more Jewish. Lets accept us as we are.
BTW, although Arabic is an optional language at school in Israel, is Hebrew optional in Lebanon or Syria? Is it easy at all to go study Hebrew in these countries? Where would you go? Wouldn't you have the police immediately on your back?

46. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Israel is the national state of the Jewish people and should reflect the ideas and culture of the Jews. If the Jews ceased to be whom they are there will not bring Israel to the end and turning her to be the “state of all it's citizens”. I don't expect the Jews to do such a harsh step and they'll try hard to keep their own nationality within their national-state as the Arabs do.
Getting closer doesn't mean you lose your identity. There are 22 Arab states in the ME why to add the 23rd? There are more conflicts among Arabs than between Arabs and Israel and much more Arabs are killed even today by Arabs rather than by Jews.
That means that Avi Azrieli's offer is not really the solution for this special conflict. The real solution is to promote huge steps of modernization and democratization within the Muslim societies and states in order to make them talk freedom, justice and friend hood.
Abe Bird

47. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
yeah right. Israelis only need to speak Arabic, hide their women under Burkas and abolish their elections, and the Arabs will love them. Wonderful solution.
Well, lets look at this from a historic point of view. There always have been people who believed, had the Jews only been assimilated more in Europe, had they not had their own customs, ways of dressing, synagogues etc. the holocaust would not have happened. Or to say it like this writer here sees it: if those Polish and Russian Jews in the 1940s only had learned to speak German they concentration camps would never have happened. Yeah right. Ask the German Jews who were arrested and killed first. They lived absolutely normal German lives. In most cases you could not tell if a pedestrian on a Berlin street in 1932 was Jewish or “aeyan”. That did not help them at all.
This is but one more of these utterly unrealistic wishful thinking proposals we know from the “peace movement”

48. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
I am surprised that nobody mentioned the obvious association to pre-Nazi Germany and its Jews.
Germans of the mosaic faith were more than just learning to speak proper German, they contributed way above any proportionality to German litarature. However, they had to find out that loving the German language and German culture did not make them acceptable to other Germans.

49. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
I saw “Free Zone” by Amos Gitai the other day, and the Palestinian protagonist said, at some point, something along the lines of: “it is important to know your enemy's language; it's a shame Israelis do not learn Arabic, maybe it could have made things different.” Made me think of your post
It's crazy to read some of the comments here showing a huge lack of dialogue and the extent to which the misunderstanding goes, with stereotypes and generalizations at their peek. No MOST Arabs do not want to annihilate Israelis and spend all their energies at finding a way to do so. Also, I fail to see in what way learning Arabic is a step in the direction of “hid[ing] their women under Burkas and abolish their elections,”
Obviously learning Arabic will not settle everything, but it's an idea to move forward and an idea in trying to find solutions. Also, it will not take away Israelis' identity, but to the contrary enrich it, while at the same time, facilitating the dialogue.
Fabian, RE: your comment about Jews in Lebanon; while I agree that Jews have been at times the target of certain attacks, it is important to note that the Jews of Lebanon were just one of Lebanon's 23 minorities with the SAME rights and privileges, and subject to the SAME political tensions. They have not been persecuted after the establishment of the state of Israel and it was the only Arab country where the Jewish population actually increased between 1948 and 1967. The fact that they left Lebanon is not due to persecutions. They left Lebanon because of the civil war and political tensions (although some refused to, lived there throughout the war and still live there today.) But so have many Christians and Muslims.
The Synagogue of Wadi Bujmil which has been severely damaged during the war is being gradually restored. Many of my Jewish friends went to Lebanon and interacted with Lebanese of all faiths, they have never felt the need to hide their Jewish identity.
Obviously you still have some anti-semitism among certain person but as well as you have anti-Muslims or anti-Christians. This is not particular to Lebanon. Western countries have the same problem.
Lebanese Jews are not forbidden to come back. They can come back and recuperate the properties they have left behind. I do hope that they will, along with the rest of the Muslim and Christian Diaspora.
The present Jewish community in Lebanon is very small but there still is such a community and they live there in the same way that they always have with the same struggles as other communities in Lebanon.
A Lebanese Jewish friend still has family there and they tried to get them out of there during the last war, but they refused to leave.

50. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Free Cedar:
If all that the article said was that Israelis should learn Arabic, who would disagree? Well, some would, but not me.
However, that was not what the article said! Learning Arabic, Azrieli clearly states, is only the beginning:
“The immediate effort should center on language. Few Israelis speak Arabic, even though it is one of Israel's two official languages, alongside Hebrew. :
He posits that Israel should change its societal “paradigm” because “the cultural alienation from its neighbors has intensified Israel's pariah status in the region.”
Yada yada. I suggest you read the article.
He doesn't really say what he means by this. What's the paradigm? Libya? Yemen? Egypt? Or maybe….Kurdistan? Or how about Lebanon, tearing itself apart once a generation every time the demographic mix changes?
This is the psychology of a man who has cracked up and lost his culture. I wouldn't have bothered even criticizing it except for some reason Lisa thought it was worth blogging about.

51. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
“I suggest you read the article.”
Sophia, I did read it, and re-read it as you made me feel as if I missed the author's point. Well after a second reading, I still fail to see in what way accepting the ME culture and learning Arabic is a step in the direction of “hid[ing] their women under Burkas and abolish their elections,”
The Arab world is far from perfect, but generalizing its culture and way of leaving to “hid[ing] their women under Burkas and abolish their elections,” and some of the comments written, shows ignorance and a huge lack of dialogue.
“Learning Arabic, Azrieli clearly states, is only the beginning”
Yes it is only the beginning. The beginning in a process to accept the region's culture and people, rather than isolate yourself from it.
It is all about perception; a perception of the Arab world that sees in Israel a country that is here to annihilate you and your culture. While some believe that not to be true it is a general perception fueled by their own leaders' rhetoric and actions taken by Israel. By embracing their culture and accepting it, while at the same time enriching your own culture, you kill that perception and make the job harder for extremists and senseless rhetoric. In addition, you facilitate the dialogue.
You speak of “a man who has cracked up and lost his culture” while I see a man who is trying to find a solution to a problem. One that is different than unilateral actions.
There is one thing that the author forgot to mention and it is that the Arab world also needs to change, but he was speaking to an Israeli audience, thus most probably left aside on purpose.

52. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Dear Free Cedar:
Thanks for answering me, I did not see it until now.
Look, all is not well when you see that almost all the Jews in the Arab countries have left. You mention that Lebanon is a specific case, and maybe it is so. Although I have Lebanese Jewish family in law and they escaped Lebanon after 1967 because the antisemitic climate was impossible to bear. But the issue in the article is wider than Lebanon. The author writes about being more Middle Eastern (which means, more Arab, not only more Lebanese). I don't think that Jews from Arab countries can be more Arabs, and they are the ones who escaped from there. Not me, I come from Argentina. BTW, I, personally, am still adapting myself to the Jewish Hebraic culture. It is not that I want to throw myself into the Arab culture. This is not why I came here. For me, Israel is Jewish. If I wanted to go to an Arab country I would have immigrated to Egypt.
You write: “It is all about perception; a perception of the Arab world that sees in Israel a country that is here to annihilate you and your culture. While some believe that not to be true it is a general perception fueled by their own leaders' rhetoric and actions taken by Israel”
Then you should look at it backwards. It is the Arab world that has a wrong perception of Israel. If they think that a small country of 7 million people can anihilate the Egyptian, Iraqi or even the Lebanese culture, then there is something very wrong in their minds. Or it is you that need to learn Hebrew to understand us and stop paying attention to your leaders.
We have stood several Arab countries' attempts to anhilate us to know what to expect for a long time, until you change. It is not us who need to change, it is you. This is not a question about rhetoric, it is a question of several wars.
I was debating with someone the other day about Lebanon and the issue of the cluster bombs. I said to him: 'well, what the Lebanese have to do is sign a peace treaty with Israel in which Israel committs itself to clean your place of bombs, paying or doing the job themselves, then everyone will be happy”.
Sadly, that guy (who wasn't Lebanese) was all for whining about the bad Israelis instead of catching the opportunity, even if it was a theoretical opportunity, since we don't have any position of power. What do you think? is it not a great initiative? What do you think as a Lebanese, and what do you think the rest of the Lebanese would say to this?
Peace is peace. If you want to whine about “cultural imperialism” is your choice. But then I strongly recommend you burn your Beatles records.
I will copy this in your blog. Best,
Fabian

53. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Dear Fabian,
A couple of points (sorry in advance for the length):
1. We have a very different interpretation of the article. You see the author's point as being that Israel should become another Arab country. I don't. No one expects Israel to completely change and become an Arab country. This doesn't hold to be true.
You see it as a complete change of the Israeli way of life. That isn't the way I interpret it. It is not changing Israel or Israeli way of life, it is changing by embracing another language and culture. I fail to see in what way this could be wrong. It won't make Israel another Arab country. Israel will be the same, but enrich its own culture, while at the same time facilitating its interaction with its neighbors.
Change is not always bad you know.
2. Perception is not necessarily reality and, actually, most of the time isn't reality. Perception is your own reality, your own way of perceiving the world. Whether perception is real or not is not the issue, the issue is how to change that perception. And how can you change it? By showing the other person that his reality is flawed.
I have been in contact with Israelis in the last couple of months and reading Israelis blogs. The more we have interacted the more points in common I have found between us. However, I have been able to interact with them, not only thanks to the net, but also because we have a language that allows us to do so; in this case: English.
Interacting and dialoguing kills many stereotypes and wrong ideas you have about the other person. It creates a new perception. A new reality. Closer to the actual reality.
Now, take the regular Lebanese or Arab and Israeli, they will not speak a common language in most cases. In this case, how can they interact? How can they find out how, at the end of the day, similar they are?
Learning Arabic will be a first step to a process, but a process that I believe will come naturally afterwards.
3. You argue that Arabs need to change and only they need to change. As if Israel doesn't have any wrongs, or has never made any wrongs. How do you think the Arab perception was created? By mere anti-Semitism? That's not true. If you want to go back in history, in the way you do by talking of the different wars, we can do that with Israel too, from the early yishuv to the present, the examples are multiple. But this will not get us anywhere. Each party has its own share of wrongs. Each party has fueled the other's aggressiveness and violence. But time has passed since then and instead of going back why not look into the future?
By taking unilateral actions and building walls, by waging full scale wars, … things will not get better. It hasn't solved anything in the past; it will not solve anything in the future. That is why the author's proposal is an interesting proposal and should be taken into consideration rather than simply thrown away.
That doesn't mean that Arab states are nice little babies, with no wrongs of their own and do not need to change. To the contrary, Arab states need to change in many aspects as well. It is a two way road, a two protagonists' effort. However, it is wrong for you to believe that Israel doesn't need to change.
4. As for peace, well I have always been for peace. Peace is a necessity. Only peace can guarantee peace. I have always been favor of it and am still in favor of it.
However, am sorry to say that your use of the cluster bombs as an example to get peace and relate the whining about cluster bombs with “cultural imperialism” is wrong. They shouldn't have been used in the first place and all they will do is kill innocent people. Peace or no peace, those bombs are Israel's responsibility. But this is a whole other debate.
Peace is warranted. I believe it and hope for it in a very near future.

54. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Free Cedar:
Twice you attributed to me something I did not say:
“”hid[ing] their women under Burkas and abolish their elections,”
I never said this and I demand that you immediately apologize to me for this misattribution. If it was not a misattribution then it was a deliberate attempt to distort this dialogue.
Until you retract this misquotation, or whatever it was, I will consider further dialogue with you to be fruitless.

55. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Sophia, could you please dial down the aggressive tone a bit?
Based on our correspondence, which continued throughout the war, I am sure that Free Cedar did not mean to misquote you or misattribute anything to you. Trust me, he's a great guy.
Maybe you two should take this conversation to email..?

56. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm
Lisa, sorry for further hijacking your comment section and thank you for your kind words.
Sophia, no need for senseless bickering, so am sorry for the misunderstanding, but if you go up the posted comments, my first comment was not attributed to anyone (apart for the bit on Jews in Lebanon addressed to Fabian.) It was a general comment on what I read.
You answered to that post, refuting my interpretation of the author's article and inviting me to read the article. So I re-read it and answered back, at you, that I was still in accord with my first interpretation of the article. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.
I am not trying to insult you and am not trying to distort any dialogue. All I was doing was giving my opinion. I did not single out anyone and did not intend to. So if you felt singled out, apologies.

57. Anonymous
on December 31st, 1969 at 6:59 pm